Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 September 9

= September 9 =

Loanwords vs codeswitching
Is there a difference between a loanword and code-switching? My understanding is that code-switching is an elaborate form of loanword, but it involves a more thorough understanding of how two different languages work. Meanwhile, loanword takes a foreign word and inputs it into the language's vocabulary. Specifically, I am wondering about instances like these:

1. 我很想吃麦当劳的汉堡包.

2. 我很想吃McDonald的hamburger.

3. 我想去Gloria的party.

4. 太晚了，我该睡觉了. Good night.

5. 太晚了，我该睡觉了. 晚安吧！

6. 三颗药是有谢谢的意思，吃了四颗就会死了.

7. He is dream-talking（梦话）. (Instead of "he is talking in his sleep")

1 seems to be the classic example of using loanwords. 5 is completely written in Chinese. 4 may be code-switching or loanword, depending on how the term is pronounced. If "Good night" is pronounced with Chinese phonetics, then it is a loanword. But if it is pronounced with American English phonetics, then it is an example of code-switching. 6 is adopting the English word and making a wordplay out of it with Chinese phonetics. So, the only difference between loanword and code-switching is by how something is pronounced? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 01:35, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I would have said rather that code-switching usually involves an often conscious choice by the speaker to mix elements of two languages (say, A and B), both of which they are reasonably adept in using (and where they could have made a different choice), whereas a speaker using a loanword is simply utilising an element of their language A vocabulary that happens to have been borrowed by language A from language B (which they may not have any command of), perhaps without their even being aware of that fact. It is however possible that a given sentence could be analysed more than one way, and that more than one process may be operating simultaneously. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.61.201 (talk) 03:36, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Also note that loanwords often have a subtle change in meaning in the new language. StuRat (talk) 04:13, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * French loanwords from English are often misleading: le smoking is a dinner-jacket/tuxedo while les baskets are traners/sneakers. Alansplodge (talk) 09:13, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I did a quick search of 点心 and got a list of desserts. One type is dim sum. Dim sum in English exclusively refers to Cantonese (or generic Chinese) sweet or savory bite-sized morsels of food. Conversely, the English Wikipedia has an article titled dessert, but I can't find the word "dim sum" anywhere on the page. This difference between the Chinese and English Wikipedias may suggest a difference in thinking. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 12:21, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * My favorite from French is "molest", which in French retains it's original meaning of "bother", while in English it has morphed to mean "rape". So, if a French coworker asks if he can molest you for a few minutes, don't be alarmed. :-) StuRat (talk) 14:32, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * No it hasn't Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2017 May 21. 82.12.63.55 (talk) 15:17, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Let me clarify. In US English "molest" has come to mean "commit sexual abuse". See def 3 at "molest".  Unfortunately, they don't distinguish between UK English and US English, where that is now the primary def.  Note the redirect on molest here. StuRat (talk) 15:48, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Code-switching is when two speaker communities come into contact, they become bilingual and speak with a mish mash of each other's languages. That's just what humans do, I am not even sure I would call it a conscious decision to be honest, often it just comes out. As a result of bilinguals code-switching a lot, a few of those foreign words eventually become widely adopted in the languages. So I would propose that code-switching is a process by which loanwords are adopted, and that a foreign word becomes a loanword once it starts being understood and used by people who aren't a part of these bilingual communities. – filelakeshoe (t / c) &#xF0F6;  19:00, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * If honesty is ingrained at an early age, it never takes a conscious decision. Honesty should just manifest itself, or, as you put it, "it just comes out". :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:13, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that when a woman is being molested there may well be a sexual element but the essential ingredient of rape is penetration. 81.159.253.212 (talk) 08:31, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

"Making up words"
Days ago, I read a paper about the characteristics of easy to remember numbers. Now, I'm trying to find a similar research or article about what combinations of consonants and vowels create easy to pronounce and remember words (For example, "gaga is better than "gago" and "jiji" is better than "jaji")

I know it's a weird question but my project needs an algorithm that performs this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.45.127.64 (talk) 13:38, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Beware that if this is for passwords, such passwords will be easier to crack, once your method is known. StuRat (talk) 14:30, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the advice... but I'm using this method to (try to) implement the "phonetic number system" programmatically; in case no English word is found, a "made up" word/noun would be used...
 * Please always sign every post. Add 4 tildes (~) at the end.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:48, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

You may wish to start at the article English phonotactics = "what combinations of consonants and vowels create easy to pronounce and remember words" and also English orthography which details the permitted combinations of letters in writing. In the examples you gave however "gaga" and "jiji" are probably easier to remember for a more specific reason – the reduplication of the same syllable. – filelakeshoe (t / c) &#xF0F6;  19:05, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation of 'integral'
There was a time, in my experience, when the word 'integral' was always pronounced with the stress on the first syllable.

Now, the pronunciation seems to have bifurcated, depending on whether one is:
 * using it as an adjective - in-TEG-rəl, or
 * referring to the mathematical symbol (∫) - IN-tə-grəl.

I guess a mathematician could be heard to say "The IN-tə-grəl is an in-TEG-rəl part of the basic concepts of calculus".

Is this actually the case in other parts of the anglosphere, and what could explain this new complexity when the general trend is in the opposite direction? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:27, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I always put the stress on the first syllable, even for the adjective, here in the UK, but I've noticed the same tendency to shift the stress by non-mathematicians who don't use the noun.  D b f i r s   20:36, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * My guess is that the two pronunciations were competing for prominence in US English (or wherever it is both were first widely used) but the maths community held out against the innovative pronunciation. As for why the stress would shift to the penultimate syllable in the adjective in the first place, could it be analogy to similar noun/adjective pairs like "INvalid" and "inVALid", "PHOtograph" and "photoGRAPHic"? For the record I'm from the UK and I do say inTEGral for the adjective, I guess it caught on with my generation. – filelakeshoe (t / c) &#xF0F6;  01:19, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Is this random?  I'm thinking of July which became July and balcony which became balcony. 81.159.253.212 (talk) 08:16, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Balcony? Really?  I'd love to see some evidence of that.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:31, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That sounds more like "baloney". And IN-te-gral used to be the pronunciation, but somehow it's changing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:43, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with the first sentence. The second sentence ... well, that's what this whole thread is about, actually.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:38, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * How do you pronounce Attila? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:53, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That's because it's from Italian balcōne, but the word has been Anglicised since 1825.  D b f i r s   07:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That's because it's from Italian balcōne, but the word has been Anglicised since 1825.  D b f i r s   07:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * USA here, I almost never hear inTEGral as part of my academic career, which includes hearing a fair amount both the mathematical and general adjectival usage. I definitely associate it with UK pronunciation, perhaps Indian English as well. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:54, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * See Initial-stress-derived noun. Nouns tend toward initial stress, verbs and adjectives to iambic. There'z large list given. μηδείς (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, all. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:52, 12 September 2017 (UTC)