Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 December 30

= December 30 =

Vowels before R
Why are vowels before R so different in English from vowels in general?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:48, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you give some examples of what you mean? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Because R-colored vowels. HenryFlower 20:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


 * By the late eighteenth century, in dialects of English that would later develop into modern British and American standard English, there was a rule that the "checked vowels" [ɪ ɛ æ ɒ ʊ ʌ] could not appear directly before an /r/ which was either word-final or followed by another consonant sound.  The only vowels which could appear in such a position were the "free" vowels (long vowels and diphthongs) and unstressed [ə].  In addition, there were several sounds which occurred only before /r/ -- [eɪ] did not occur before /r/ within a word-stem, and instead [ɛː] occurred.  Similarly, [oʊ] did not occur before /r/ within a word-stem, and instead [oː] occurred (often with a tendency to merge with [ɔː], though I'm not sure if this happened as early as the 18th century).  And finally there's [ɜː], which can occur only before /r/.
 * Since that time, /r/ which is word-final or followed by another consonant sound has of course been dropped in "non-rhotic" dialects (sometimes leaving a schwa-like offglide behind), while in many varieties of "rhotic" American English, long-vowels are usually shortened before /r/, "marry" merges with "merry" etc. AnonMoos (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I'd quibble with "there was a rule", . Many people reading this would be inclined to interpret this as something which had to be taught. I think you mean a rule in the historical linguistics sense of a formalised descripton of a change that happened: nobody decided it or taught it, it was just how people spoke. --ColinFine (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Linguists would have little difficulty in describing it as a "rule", but there's no problem with using the words "regularity" or "generalization" if you prefer one of them.  Very, very few of those whose speech followed the "no checked vowels before /r/ which is word final or followed by another consonant" pattern at the time would have been aware of it, of course... AnonMoos (talk) 23:45, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Italian goodbye
What is the difference between "arrivederci" and "arrivederla"? --rossb (talk) 21:38, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Literally, arrivederci means "until we see each other again", whereas arrivederla means "until I see you (formal) again". Arrivederci is all-purpose; it can be used both with people you address informally (tu) or formally (Lei), whereas arrivederla is only for people you address as Lei.  I tend to think of arrivederla as sort of "extra formal", possibly a tiny bit over-the-top in most situations, but I do know people who use it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:10, 30 December 2018 (UTC)