Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 February 22

= February 22 =

Mounting a running horse
What is the correct construction: "mount a horse at a run" or "mount a horse at the run" or something else? Ericoides (talk) 05:52, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with "mount a running horse"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Nothing at all. Ericoides (talk) 08:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Besides Ericoides : Anyway the correct locution for a horse competition is "horse racing" not "horse run"--Pierpao (talk) 08:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I want to mount my horse at a run but I don't still choose which one"
 * I'll go to the Kentucky Derby. I want to mount a horse at the run"
 * Mounting a running horse is dangerous
 * Who said anything about a horse competition? --Viennese Waltz 09:06, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Apparently no one. Run does not mean competition but "mount a horse at the run" sound similar. Just to help in case Ericoides had made such mistake.--Pierpao (talk) 09:56, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * This, for example, although it's more of a slow trot than a gallop. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * "Vault-on" seems to be the phrase. Alansplodge (talk) 11:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * (e/c) Part of the problem here is that, although it can certainly be used informally, horses generally are not said to "run" - they walk, canter, gallop, etc. See horse gait for details (though the word 'run' or 'running' is sometimes used to describe the more formal terms). The result is ambiguity - is the person running? The horse? Is 'the run' meant as a synonym for 'the race' (as above)? Matt Deres (talk) 13:29, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's helpful. You're right. "Run" is the issue. "Race" was a red herring. Ericoides (talk) 14:43, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Nobody has mentioned the more likely meaning of running up to a stationary horse and leaping onto it. After all, it's nearly impossible to mount a horse that is running past. Akld guy (talk) 19:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, also helpful. Thanks. Ericoides (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * We have an article, Equestrian vaulting, the video clip attached to the article shows a woman doing the "nearly impossible". The section headed Competition movements describes "Vault On": "The vault-on leads to the frontways seat on the horse. After jumping on both feet, the right leg swings up immediately, as high as possible, lifting the pelvis higher than the head, while the left leg remains stretched down. The shoulders and hips are parallel to the shoulder axis of the horse. When the pelvis is at the highest possible point, the vaulter lowers the stretched right leg and lands softly, erect and centred in the seat astride with the upper body vertical". Alansplodge (talk) 13:37, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

He speaks no French/He doesn't speak French.
Are both sentences equivalent? Does one imply a higher degree or a different perspective?--Hofhof (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I'd say they're basically equivalent. I might read the second one as allowing that he might be able to read or understand spoken French, but is not an adept enough speaker to manage oral communication himself. Matt Deres (talk) 13:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Interesting. In Spanish, there is Se habla español and Él habla español. I wonder if Él se habla español means anything or if it’s incorrect. Anyway, I get the impression that “he doesn’t speak French” may mean he may speak other languages, just not French, while “He speaks no French” may suggest that he may know French but doesn’t speak it at that moment or situation. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I understand se habla español as a passive, "Spanish is spoken" (in a place), rather than attributing the ability to a specific speaker; I'd take él se habla to mean "he talks to himself" whether or not a language is specified. Am I mistaken? —Tamfang (talk) 07:57, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It's either "passive" or "impersonal", I think. In Italian, which has an essentially identical construct, there's a distinction between the si-passivante and the si-impersonale, though I'm a little foggy on exactly where the line is.  This page claims that it's passivante when there's a direct object and impersonale otherwise, but then somewhat confusingly gives Qui si parla italiano as an example of impersonale.  I would have thought italiano was a direct object in that sentence, but perhaps there is argument on that point. --Trovatore (talk) 08:27, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I have to wonder if we're touching on a subtle regional difference (seeing as we've gotten responses from a Canadian and an Ohioan, and I'm from South Carolina).
 * Most people I know would say "he doesn't speak French" to describe someone who:
 * cannot speak or understand French.
 * can understand but not speak French.
 * may well be fluent in French but is currently refusing to speak it.
 * And these can be distinguished simply by tone ("he doesn't speak French," "he doesn't speak French," "he doesn't speak French"). Most native speakers I know wouldn't say "he speaks no French," but if they did, it would describe someone who:
 * cannot speak or understand French.
 * can understand but not speak French.
 * "He speaks no French" would be used to describe someone who might know French but refuses to speak it only with additional clarification ("when he's around his family, he speaks no French") or in a different tense ("he would speak no French," "he spoke no French"). However, I would expect non-native speakers to say "he speaks no French," especially if their first language is a one where where "(he) no speaks French" is correct syntax.  "He speaks no French" is just the least amount of work to arrive at workable English.
 * They're both used to mean that one is incapable of conversing in this article. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There is an English nursery rhyme. Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean, so betwixt the two of them, they licked the platter clean. Likewise, “he speaks no French” almost follows the same sentence structure. So, the rhyme probably means Jack Sprat doesn’t eat fatty things. But, to be honest, when I made the above post, I understood and explained it in Mandarin. 他不会说法语 = He can’t speak French / He doesn’t know how to speak French. / He is unable to speak French. 他跟他家人说中文，不说法语 = He speaks Chinese, not French, to his relatives. The sentence “He speaks no French” is a bit unusual, so I attempted to translate into Chinese and tried to see what I got. 他说的话不是法语, but that involves interpreting the original as “His speech is not French”, which may imply he may know French but doesn’t speak it at the moment.140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Re the rhyme: true, but it reflects older forms of English, and poetry gets away with bending syntax to fit poetic forms. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I'm a bit surprised by others' responses. To me,  is somewhat marked in English, and goes considerably farther in denying French competency than does.
 * For example, someone who doesn't speak French might still be able to say parley voo Fransay? or comment tapple twa?, but someone who speaks no French couldn't even do that. --Trovatore (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Whilst agreeing with Trovatore's comments above, I might add that "speaks no French" or "eats no fat" would sound rather archaic in a spoken conversation in my opinion. It reminds me of Richard Carew (d. 1620) who when asking directions of Cornish people was answered "Meea navidna cawzasawzneck", meaning "I can speak no Saxonage", even though they spoke English perfectly well.  Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I would go along with Trovatore's interpretation. I know a few French phrases (which most any educated English speaker could), so it would be incorrect to say I speak "no" French. But I can't carry on a conversation in French, so "I don't speak French" would be correct. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Technically correct, but we don't speak like that anymore (in London at any rate); it sounds a bit 18th century, as in "but me no buts". I've never heard a vegetarian say "I eat no meat", they usually go for "I don't eat meat". But maybe it's different in the US. Alansplodge (talk) 10:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * No, same in the US &mdash; that's why I said the "no" usage is marked. But if someone did use it, and I were trying to figure out why, I might come up with something like, maybe it's short for "he speaks no French at all". --Trovatore (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Harmony is restored. Alansplodge (talk) 13:30, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Re. Edward Lear:
 * "He reads, but he cannot speak, Spanish,
 * He cannot abide ginger beer:
 * Ere the days of his pilgrimage vanish,
 * How pleasant to know Mr. Lear!"
 * Ericoides (talk) 12:20, 23 February 2018 (UTC)


 * In response to IP 140 above, Él se habla español is improper. It might be understood to mean "he speaks Spanish to himself", but that would be bad grammar, and would literally mean "he speaks himself Spanish."  The proper formation for "He speaks Spanish to himself" would be Él habla español a si mismo.  μηδείς (talk) 16:23, 26 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I see that the word qui in Italian means "here".  I thought initially that it meant "who" and had difficulty parsing Trovatore's link for that reason.   The link is consistent within itself since italiano is the subject, not the object in the sentence.   It's all the difference between Aqui se fala português (subject) and Ele fala português (object) in this explanation:

That first sentence looks to be a reflexive construction, e.g. Aqui se fala português (Portuguese spoken here). The second sentence appears to mean "He speaks Spanish". You can't mix the two, giving two objects to the verb, which appears to be both transitive and intransitive (e.g. Ele fala português (intransitive).  The third sentence is not possible.   Perhaps someone can explain why the masculine (português) is used here, as it appears to be in the Spanish example.   Is this not short for Ele fala a lingua portuguesa ("language" being feminine, as it appears to be also in Spanish)? - 92.19.172.194 16:27, 22 February 2018

I don't see any difference between this and Si vende villa in periferia, also in Travatore's link, which appears to mean "House for sale in the suburbs".2A00:23C0:7900:FE01:C5BB:685F:979F:9D1F (talk) 20:57, 26 February 2018 (UTC)