Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 July 10

= July 10 =

Pronunciation of "Hessian"
I was watching a documentary about George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River on PBS America yesterday; the narrator kept talking about "Hesh'n troops". It took me a while to work out that he was talking about Hessian troops. In England, I've only ever heard it as "Hess-i-an" - we don't discuss Hessian soldiers very often over here, but we do have Hessian fabric and Hessian boots. Is this the usual US pronunciation or just a personal idiosyncrasy? Alansplodge (talk) 14:40, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The narrator's pronunciation is the only one this American is familiar with. --Khajidha (talk) 15:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * In the WB cartoon Bunker Hill Bunny, Yosemite Sam's encounters with Bugs Bunny leave him a "Hessian without no aggression", where the rhyme indicates the pronunciation used. Deor (talk) 15:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * And likewise, W. S. Gilbert, who was British, rhymes "Hessians" with "professions" in Patience. - Lindert (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Which might indeed say more about how he’d have pronounced professions. Rgds ✦  hugarheimur 21:02, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Or maybe not. In Iolanthe he rhymed "conservative" with "contrive" and "alive". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:21, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * He is renowned for bodging his rhymes - "taunts" with "aunts" for example - see W.S. Gilbert: Rhyme and Reason. Alansplodge (talk) 09:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Does taunt not rhyme with aunt in BrE? They don't for me, of course, because for me aunt and ant are homophones, but I would have thought they would for Gilbert. --Trovatore (talk) 21:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The other common pronunciation of aunt is like aren't without the R. --76.69.47.228 (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, "ant" vs. "ahnt" in different regions of America. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * So that was my mistake I guess &mdash; I thought the "other" pronunciation was /ɔnt/ rather than /ɑːnt/. I personally make a distinction between cot and caught, at least in careful speech, but I don't make it strongly or consistently in fast speech, and may not always notice whether others have made it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:18, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * In my dialect there's a third pronunciation, used only when attached to the personal name. The isolated word is pronounced "ant", but in constructions such as "Aunt Mary" it is pronounced like "ain't". --Khajidha (talk) 22:09, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Also an American ruralism, as in "Aint Bee". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the "real Mayberry" isn't that far from where I live.--Khajidha (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Alansplodge's experience is corroborated by this Englishman, and by Collins English Dictionary. 'Hessian' of course adjectifies the German state-name 'Hesse', which is normally pronounced with "s", not "ʃ" ("sh" – see International Phonetic Alphabet chart) in both English and Standard German (though in Hesse itself it's "Hezə", and it's possible that some German dialects/accents, such as Westphalian, might soften it to "Heʃə" – any native German speakers reading?)
 * However, compare the parallel 'Prussian', which (per experience and Collins) is more usually pronounced with "ʃ" – though I've heard it with "ss" – from the similarly pronounced 'Prussia' (though 'Prussic acid' is always "ss") – I wonder if this influenced the AmE pronunciation of 'Hessian'? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.212.98.167 (talk) 15:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I've always heard these names as Hesh'n, Prush'n, Rush'n, etc. It may not be technically right, but it's what it is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


 * 90.212.98.167 -- the [s] to [ʃ] change is due to an [i] vowel becoming [j], then influencing the quality of the directly-preceding consonant. See article Palatalization (sound change).  There is no random inexplicable [s] to [ʃ] change... AnonMoos (talk) 23:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Nearly all British people would pronounce it with "ss" and three syllables. Nearly all Americans would pronounce it with "sh" and as two syllables (per major dictionaries in both countries).  It's just one of those Pondian differences.  For the fabric, Americans would say burlap, of course.   Dbfirs  16:28, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Do Brits also say ROOS-ee-uhn? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:04, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * How do Americans pronounce Hess? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.221.49 (talk) 18:29, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * ... or Gaussian, Knossian, Lessian, Levi-Straussian, Molossian, Maurrassian, Molossian, Panglossian, Parnassian, Patripassian, Picassian, potassian, Senussian, Straussian, thalassian or Weierstrassian. We tend to retain the "ss" in the adjective if it is pronounced as "ss" in the noun.   Db<i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  20:47, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * All of those would keep the "ss". The thing about Hessian is that we don't tend to encounter the root name very often. We only talk about Hessians, not about Hesse. --Khajidha (talk) 02:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


 * In Terry Pratchett’s The Color of Magic the term "insurance" is understood in Ankh-Morpork as inn-sewer-ants (I remember this pun because it took me a bit to parse it – it is, of cause, completely lost in the German translation). Rgds ✦  hugarheimur 19:48, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * So I (American) certainly say /ˈgaʊ.siːən/, not generally /ˈgaʊ.ʃən/. The one that really bugs me is /ˈgɔːsiːən/; that sounds truly awful.
 * I think Hessian is a special case, probably a pronunciation that comes down from the Revolution, and I suppose the mathematical usage is a cross-contamination.
 * I would point out the Hessian (soldier) article for any who haven't seen it. It states the American pronunciation right up front. --Trovatore (talk) 22:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd noticed that it has only the American pronunciation. I'll add the British variety sometime.   <i style="color: blue;">D</i><i style="color: #0cf;">b</i><i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  07:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * And contains the prominent reference to The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, which for whatever reason states the Headless Horseman to be a Hessian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Parisians is the obvious counter-example. Presumably Americans don't say "Parish'ns". Alansplodge (talk) 11:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * No, but neither do they say "Paris-ians". That's not really a valid counter example because the adjective form is radically changed in pronunciation. Matt Deres (talk) 13:28, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Parisians" sounds more like "Puh-rihz-ee-uns" in this American's accent. --Khajidha (talk) 15:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Single-s is different. Hence Parizh'n, Indonezh'n, Malayzh'n, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:14, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Since the section title excludes nobody, I shall just add that in Australia we describe the fabric as "Hesh'n", and hardly ever talk about the people. HiLo48 (talk) 23:36, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Is that the Headlesh Horseman? Don’t rush with your answer, or should that be russ? 😀Widneymanor (talk) 07:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you one and all. Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


 * And finally, I've added the British IPA pronunciation to the Hessian (soldier) article (I cheated and copied it from Hessian fabric) - can anybody help with a template to show that it's the British English variety? Alansplodge (talk) 09:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * More thanks to User:Любослов Езыкин for the template and ref, also User:76.69.47.228 who added the plural to the IPA, which I forgot. Alansplodge (talk) 11:19, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * As Dbfirs says, there's no fixed rule.  For example, Alicia Keys can be pronounced both ways. 46.208.78.215 (talk) 17:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * However she herself pronounces it would trump regional variations. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Except that people generally don't research exactly how celebrities say their own names, and copy them slavishly. I've never heard anyone but a Russian/German pronounce Putin/Merkel as they themselves would, but does that make our versions "wrong"?  Debatable.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Those are foreign-language names. Alicia Keys is American. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Which means she's a foreigner to me. As is the American language. We all know English pronunciation varies widely across teh English speaking world. HiLo48 (talk) 00:06, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * How would you pronounce "Alicia" in Aussie English? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:09, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Bugs, I know of several pronunciations just in American English: Ah-lee-see-ah, Ah-leesh-ah, Ah-li-shee-a, Ah-lish-ah... --Khajidha (talk) 01:50, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, all of those, and following the Australian custom of shortening names, I've seen it become "Ally" and "Al". I would also say that in Australian English the first syllable of "Alicia" isn't really "Ah". That implies it rhymes with "baa", the sheep noise. But no. It's more a short, swallowed syllable, without a proper vowel sound. Just like we say the vowel part of the second syllable of Melbourne (says I, knowing that opens another Pandora's can of worms). Ah, just thought of the equivalent for Americans, the vowel sound in the second syllable of Houston. Yes, that's what the first syllable of "Alicia" sounds like! HiLo48 (talk) 02:17, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * All of those variations also occur with that vowel sound in American speech, too. --Khajidha (talk) 02:32, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * See Schwa. - Donald Albury 17:03, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, there's Ed McMahon, who always pronounced his own name "mc-MAH-yun", while most everyone, including his perennial colleague Johnny Carson, pronounced it "mc-MAN". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * In the south of England "aunt" rhymes with "aren't" (no "r" sound) as Bugs says.  In the north it rhymes with "ant". 46.208.78.215 (talk) 14:46, 12 July 2018 (UTC)