Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 July 13

= July 13 =

Latin translation
Hi, I would be very grateful if someone could translate the Medieval Latin passage below into English. It's from a letter by Pope Honorius III. — Kpalion(talk) 11:29, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

"Nuper autem nobis est pro certo relatum, quod idem dux corporis gravedine gravis vix aut numquam posset in terre sancte subsidium transfretare presertim cum ex accidenti verso in naturam nec vinum nec simplicem aquam bibere valeat, consuetus potare tantum cerevisiam vel medonem; et si forsitan transfretaret, non posset de tam remotis partibus secum congruum bellatorum ducere comitatum et propter multas ineptias nequiret ibi moram facere fructuosam."

"However, lately it has certainly been related to us that the same unpleasant cause of heavy colds of the body scarcely or never is able to cross the sea in aid to the holy land, especially when by accident turned into a nature which neither drinking wine nor pure water avails against, accustomed to drink only beer or mead; and if by chance it crosses the sea it cannot from such remote parts by itself bring on a similarly virulent accompaniment and on account of much ineptitude is unable there to make a fruitful delay." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.26.235 (talk) 10:42, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that can't be quite right. My attempt: "Recently we were told for certain that the same Duke could not cross the sea to aid in the Holy Land any time soon, being heavy from catarrhs of his body (?) and because he happens not to be able to drink wine or simple water, being used to drinking beer instead; and if he were to travel he could not transport an appropriate force of knights with him from such a remote place, and that because of his many weaknesses he would be unable to make a fruitful stay there." The passage is discussed and interpreted in this article by Mikolaj Gladysz. Apparently the Pope is referring to Leszek the White, who had made a crusader's vow and was sending excuses for not going. Gladysz cites the passage and paraphrases it as follows: "he apparently used his obesity as an excuse, along with the impossibility of replacing the beer and mead (so necessary in his diet, but unavailable in the Levant) with water and wine". Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:48, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot (for the translation and for the link)! The biggest discrepancy between your translation and that by Gladysz seems to be in the corporis gravedine gravis bit. Was Leszek suffering from catarrh or obesity? I can see that Wiktionary indeed translates gravedo as "cold in the head, catarrh", so I wonder why Gladysz chose to render it as obesity instead. — Kpalion(talk) 14:19, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I think we can safely assume that cerevisiam is beer (cf. Port. cerveja), in which case medonem is something else, and why not "mead"?  Also if the Duke was unable to drink water I doubt that he would have lived very long.   Of course, simply googling the passage would have revealed this, but the joy of Latin unseen is not doing that.   I don't think the Pope would have been impressed by an excuse that that the Duke was fat (a little research would establish whether he was or not) but he might have accepted that he was temporarily incapacitated by a heavy cold. 86.133.26.235 (talk) 14:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * About "corporis gravedine gravis": I was trying to give a rather literal translation here. It seems clear that the syntactic core of the construction is the adjective "gravis" ("heavy"), so it seems plausible to read that as implying that he was fat; what logical connection that adjective is supposed to have with the ablative "gravedine" ("with/of/from/because of 'gravedo'"), and what exactly was meant by "gravedo", is not quite clear to me. About "cerevisiam vel medonem", I just wasn't sure whether the author meant to refer to two distinct drinks, "beer" and "mead", or was simply using two synonyms to describe that barbaric, rarely-heard-of, exotic drink they had in Poland. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:05, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you both, that's a big help. — Kpalion(talk) 17:40, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Looking at this in context, drinking beer and mead would not ameliorate obesity, it would exacerbate it. 86.133.26.235 (talk) 19:21, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * True, but Leszek's physicians may have had other ideas, especially if wine and beer were thought to have different humoral complexions. — Kpalion(talk) 20:21, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Most natural wording in German
Hello. In not-too-formal correspondence, what is the most natural way of saying 'I am writing to inform you that..." in German? Is it Ich schreibe dir um dich zu informieren, dass... or something entirely different? Danke.--90.69.12.27 (talk) 13:32, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The shortest formulation might be: Hiermit teile ich Ihnen mit, dass.... If you are on du terms with the correspondent, then that's Hiermit teile ich dir mit, dass.... --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * These are good, but very cold and formal, even in the "Du" version. Try "Ich möchte Dir/Ihnen mitteilen, dass...". --Stephan Schulz (talk)


 * "Hiermit ..." is definitely formal and sounds slightly legalese (and, possibly, even mildly threatening). It will depend on the context, mutual familiarity (du / Sie ?), sociolect of the recipient and the subtle message between the lines to provide a suitable translation.  Even the verb "mitteilen" may be seen as formal / stilted / a verbal code for superiority.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:52, 15 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The English original is formal, so the translation should be fairly formal too (but not as bureaucratese as Hiermit), and is unlikely to use "Du".Ehrenkater (talk) 21:53, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Centrum
Today I've stumbled upon the building of British Automotive Centrum in Warsaw and was a bit stunned, thinking it should be "centre" in BritEng. Dictionaries like Oxford seemingly confirm that "centrum" has different meaning. Is this word still acceptable in that context anyway? Brandmeistertalk  18:34, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * So your link goes to a page written in Polish. I think that's probably the reason for the spelling in this case.  As for centrum, it's not a word I'm familiar with in English, but the anatomical meaning you found doesn't seem to have much to do with the car dealership. --Trovatore (talk) 18:40, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yep. Probably a sensationalist nod to the Polish spelling, but in that case quite a crazy idea. Brandmeistertalk  19:23, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The big OED (Third Edition update of June 2016) has cites for the Latin word centrum used as an English word meaning centre from 1398 to 1968, but it does comment that the word is "now rare".  Dbfirs  20:18, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Not so rare in American stores. See Centrum (multivitamin). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:08, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a brand name, and capitalised, so a different word in Wiktionary terms.  Db<i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  22:45, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Also see this. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:31, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * ... all capitalised, so not the word described as rare by the OED, but I agree that the use of the Latin word in names of places is surprisingly common.  <i style="color: blue;">D</i><i style="color: #0cf;">b</i><i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  06:14, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think this is not a part of the brand name (or how to call it?), but simply a Polish word preceded by a modifier (or rather a group of them). That is the first two words are in English, and the last is in Polish. I guess you may create other combinations in Polish with "(modifier words) centrum" (note that on the building the modifier is written JLR).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:03, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * But normal Polish syntax would require the modifier to be placed after the noun centrum, so this is indeed a bad mixture of Polish and English, not uncommon at all in Polish marketing. I suppose the name of this company is pronounced . — Kpalion(talk) 18:07, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant exactly this, a bad (but very "trendy") mixture of two languages. Russian is not very different ("Ленд Ровер Центр" seems not uncommon according to Google).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:11, 15 July 2018 (UTC)