Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 July 18

= July 18 =

Finding Indian proverb
Hello,

I have been shown an Indian proverb (for clarity: I mean from the country of India; I'm not using 'Indian' to mean Native American), but it is in French. I'd like to find the English equivalent, if anyone can help me. Some googling hasn't helped, as all the hits are to do with home-building techniques.

The quote in French is: Ce ne sont pas les pierres qui bâtissent la maison mais les hôtes.

Literally, this means "It is not the stones that build the home, but the guests/hosts." In French, the same word is used for both 'guests' and 'hosts', so it really could be either. I would presume it means 'hosts', i.e. the people who live there. The word for 'stones', 'pierres', could also mean 'bricks'.

I presume that it's something along the lines of: 'People make the home, not bricks', but ideally, I'd like the saying as it's actually used. (Even if you're Indian and have never heard anything like it, that could be useful – I only really find references to the French version on sites of quotations, so it could well be that someone somewhere along the line has decided it's an Indian saying even though it isn't!)

Thanks in advance,

G

82.69.80.14 (talk) 16:31, 18 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I have never heard this. However, Google shows 355 hits for "it is not the stones that build the house, but the hosts". —Stephen (talk) 17:55, 18 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for getting back to me. Most of those appear to be on various language permutations of a particluar Airbnb page – when you eliminate Airbnb results, you get 5 hits, including this page. Still, I do have evidence of usage, so it will do! 82.69.80.14 (talk) 06:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The French quote appears in L'île du toupet (2010) by Ivan Sigg p. 125, also Chrysalide (Croc-Odile III) (2015) by Audrey AJASSE, Natacha AJASSE and La bible du grand voyageur (2014) by Anick Marie BOUCHARD, Guillaume CHARROIN, Nans THOMASSEY. All quite recent, so possibly one of those pseudo-quotes spread by the internet. Alansplodge (talk) 19:15, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the information. It does look like it might well be a pseudo-quote, so that leaves me free to come up with my own version based on Stephen's suggestion. Thanks once again. 82.69.80.14 (talk) 11:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

How do you alphabetize when a person has two last names?
I believe that Hispanic people have a custom of using the last name of the father as well as the last name of the mother. As such, they often have two "last names". Sometimes, the names are hyphenated, sometimes not. For example, a person might be named Juan Alvarez-Ocasio (with a hyphen). Or, it might be printed as Juan Alvarez Ocasio (without a hyphen). So, my questions: How do you alphabetize such names? Is the hyphen mandatory or optional or inappropriate? Does the hyphen alter the alphabetization? Truth be told: I'd like to list the names in a Wikipedia article in alphabetical order, and I have no idea where to begin. The article is Death of Lesandro Guzman-Feliz. I want to alphabetize the 12 names listed in the "Suspects" section: Death of Lesandro Guzman-Feliz. I have no idea what to do. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:45, 18 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Clarification: I am looking for how these names would be treated (alphabetically) in the USA ... not in other countries.  And, specifically, in that Wikipedia article.   Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:30, 18 July 2018 (UTC)


 * In Spanish, the names are not normally hyphenated. As far as I know, the only cases where these Spanish names are hyphenated are in the U.S. where some people hyphenate them so that Americans will not mistake the first one for a middle name. The father's surname is the principal one and that's the one you alphabetize on. In a name such as Juan Álvarez Ocasio, people will call him Sr. Álvarez. In some countries, it's common to put "y" (and) between the father's surname and the mother's maiden name: Juan Álvarez y Ocasio. —Stephen (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * From Spanish naming customs, please note the part that I highlighted.
 * It is not unusual, when the first surname is very common, like García in the example above, for a person to be referred to formally using both family names, or casually by his or her second surname only. For example, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero (elected Prime Minister of Spain in the 2004 and 2008 general elections) is often called simply Zapatero, the name he inherited from his mother's family, since Rodríguez is a common surname and may be ambiguous. The same occurs with another former Spanish Socialist leader, Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, with the poet and dramatist Federico García Lorca, and with the painter Pablo Ruiz Picasso. As these people's paternal names are very common, they are often called with their maternal names (Rubalcaba, Lorca, Picasso). It would nonetheless be a mistake to index José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero under Z as "Zapatero", or Federico García Lorca under L as "Lorca".
 * Looks like indexing is done on the first surname. --Lgriot (talk) 18:16, 18 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Just so I am clear: The first surname is that of the father?  The second surname is that of the mother?  Alphabetization goes by the father's name?  And hyphens are irrelevant?  Is that correct?  Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:33, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Correct on all four counts. Xuxl (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Arguably five. —Tamfang (talk) 07:49, 25 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The sorting point is the same in English. Many people (especially British gentry of both sexes, and married American female professionals) have multiple surnames, and they are decreasingly hyphenated, but still sort by the first surname. E.g. Andrew Lloyd Webber (some of whose family, and whose own inherited title, use Lloyd-Webber), is Lloyd Webber, Andrew, not Webber, Andrew Lloyd.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:42, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, so how does one "know" if the first listed surname is indeed a surname at all (versus it simply being a middle name)? Example (I am just making this up): John Clarence Smith.  Is "Clarence" his middle name or his "first" surname?  Thanks.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:10, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Or, like Franklin Delano Roosevelt? I think we have to rely on how reliable sources treat the name. - Donald Albury 18:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You don't. I wondered for years whether Diana Wynne Jones' surname was Jones or Wynne Jones. --ColinFine (talk) 19:24, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


 * In the case of FDR, Delano was his middle name. It was also his mother's maiden name. Using the mother's maiden name as the middle name of a child was a common practice in the old days. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:34, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


 * What inherited title? —Tamfang (talk) 07:49, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, all! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:14, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Similarly, Walter Burley Griffin had ″Burley″ as his middle name and should always be alphabetised under ″Griffin″, which makes the naming of Canberra's Lake Burley Griffin ridiculous. Djbcjk (talk) 05:26, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

It often does take RS research to find out, especial with possibly married women, and with Eurpeans in general. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)


 * If I'm not mistaken, the Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules used by many major libraries prescribe that cataloguing be based on the name that comes last. Thus, if a married author is known as "Jane Doe Roe", where her maiden surname is Doe and her married surname Roe, the work gets catalogued under "Roe, Jane Doe". However, different rules probably apply to non-Anglo-American names such as Spanish names. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:50, 25 July 2018 (UTC)