Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 July 28

= July 28 =

Accentuation of maíz
Dear all, how many syllables are there in the Spanish word for corn? I'm aware that words ending in all consonants but "s" and "n" should be accentuated on the last syllable, but also know that weak vowels ("i" and "u") shouldn't be accentuated when next to the strong ones ("a", "e", "o"). Looking forward to your insight. 93.140.112.32 (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Without the accent, the "ai" would be read as a single syllable, a diphthong with stress on the strong vowel "a" and a non-syllabic "i". The accent makes sure the /i/ is read as the vowel of a separate (and stressed) syllable, /maˈiθ/ (that's /maˈis/ with seseo). See Spanish orthography. --Theurgist (talk) 13:45, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * French does the same thing - maïs - but with the diaeresis to mark the double vowel sounds. Wymspen (talk) 16:56, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * A kernel of trivia: maíz is the original word, and its English equivalent is maize (mispronounced as a homophone of maze). The English word corn can apply to any number of cereal grains, which is why maize is also known as Indian corn to distinguish it from wheat, barley, oats, etc. Which is further complicated by the use of "Indian" to mean Native Americans, not natives of India. English is a funny language. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:59, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Bugs, I'm a little surprised; you seem to be giving the Commonwealth view here. "Corn" is not ordinarily available in American English to mean "cereal grain in general"; that's more a British thing.
 * This is something that British editors often don't seem to get. In their variety, "corn" is used to mean whatever grain is most grown in a region; say, wheat or barley, which also have more specific names.  They tend to imagine that the same is true on the other side of the Atlantic.
 * But it isn't. In American English, "corn" means very specifically Zea mays, and only that.  It does not mean wheat or barley, at least not in ordinary non-poetic discourse.
 * By the way, "maize" is not a good substitute in American English; it tends to refer to brightly colored dent corn flint corn used for decoration. --Trovatore (talk) 20:28, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. Here's a history of the term "corn". "Maize" is its international name. While "Indian corn" used to mean maize in general, it is now most often used to refer to the ears with multiply-colored kernels like we see in the stores in the fall, which tend to be used strictly as decorations. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:34, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Maize" is its Commonwealth name. In American English, it is corn, period. --Trovatore (talk) 20:49, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:03, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, necessarily. "Corn" is the name of Zea mays in American English. --Trovatore (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I work for an agriculture company, an international but not "Commonwealth" company, and maize is the term they use. What about you? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not. But agriculture companies are likely to employ specialized usages. You may be unduly influenced by them in this case. I am talking about general-usage American English, not corporate or government jargon.
 * However, when it comes to technical uses, you might note that we have a bunch of articles on specialized cultivars (cultivar groups?) of corn, such as sweet corn, dent corn, flint corn, field corn, flour corn. No one ever seems to speak of, say, "flint maize", or confuse any of these with wheat or oats. That's because, in the States, "corn" has become the genuine name of Zea mays, not a word for "cereal grain" indirectly referring to "of course we mean Zea mays because that's our largest cereal crop". --Trovatore (talk) 21:40, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Somehow, my original point got lost. maíz is not "the Spanish word for corn". Rather, maíz is the original word, and the words maize (or corn, in America) are the English for maíz. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:02, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, it's true that I hadn't understood that that was your point.
 * But I don't think the statement "maíz is the Spanish word for 'corn makes any claim to etymological priority. It just says that the thing referred to in (American) English by the word "corn" is referred to in Spanish as maíz, which is perfectly true. --Trovatore (talk) 22:01, 29 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you both. I'd rate my Spanish as low advanced or advanced medium (perhaps brilliant and mediocre at the same time?!). Thought my understanding of two rules from the original question would have sufficed in understanding the reasoning behind this, but was baffled to learn of "acento tónico", "hiato" and alike. 93.140.112.32 (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Two. Mexican Spanish /maˈis/. We shouldn't give this with Castilian Spanish pronunciation.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Why's that, if you don't mind me asking? 93.140.112.32 (talk) 15:23, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Because maize is from Mexico maybe?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * So what? maíz is the standard term for the thing even in Spain. Besides, /maˈiθ/ is a better diaphonemic transcription, because the Mexican pronunciation is derivable from it – you just have to replace the /θ/ with a /s/ – whereas /maˈis/ doesn't tell you whether or not to replace the /s/ with a /θ/ so as to get the Castilian pronunciation. --Theurgist (talk) 16:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "So what" because it's the equivalent of giving the pronunciation of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in Scottish English.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:40, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see those as equivalent. Not sure why you picked Scottish, so could be I've missed some aspect of your point.
 * But in any case Pittsburgh is part of the United States, whereas corn is not part of Mexico. I expect they eat corn in Spain also, though I don't know enough about Spanish cuisine to name a particular dish.  If we were to discuss the Spanish pronunciation in English Wikipedia (which I'm not sure why we would, outside the refdesk), it would make sense to give both pronunciations. --Trovatore (talk) 20:07, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * off topic:
 * In German, the term Mais is used, whatever the original etymology may be. In Austria we call it Kukuruz, which seems to be of S-Slavic, thence possibly Turkic origin.  Probably a left-over from Ottoman attempts to expand into late medieval Europe, but I cannot find any proper references.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:13, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * See Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 August 7

and these two enquiries:

- 86.176.18.217 18:31, 7 February 2018

- 81.151.129.230 16:11, 11 February 2018


 * The rules are detailed at Spanish orthography and Portuguese orthography.
 * In both languages, the main function of the orthographic accents is to indicate a stressed syllable whose position disobeys certain patterns for stress placement within the word. Those patterns are based on the final letter of the word and on the position of the stressed syllable. Words that do obey the patterns generally don't have orthographic accents.
 * These patterns don't count an accent-less "i" or "u" next to another vowel as forming a separate syllable in Spanish (so García requires the accent but Croacia doesn't), but they do in Portuguese (so Garcia doesn't need one but Croácia does). Márquez has the accent as it ends with a "z", while Marques doesn't have it as it ends with an "s". The bolded syllables are stressed, and note that the u's in Márquez and Marques are silent and so don't count at all.
 * As far as vowels are concerned, Spanish makes use just of the acute accent, while Portuguese uses a more complex system of diacritical marks. In fact Spanish also has the letter ü, but it serves a function unrelated to the stress. --Theurgist (talk) 20:11, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is all over the place. The question was: "how many syllables are there in the Spanish word for corn?" The answer is: maíz has two syllables, regardless of Spanish country. Maíz is two syllables in Spain and two syllables in Mexico. The weak vowels ("i" and "u") always form diphthongs when next to another vowel (ai, ei, oi, ui, ia, ie, io, iu); and a diphthong resides in a single syllable. However, if an acute accent is added to a weak vowel, it turns it into a strong vowel, and two strong vowels together are always considered to belong to two separate syllables: aí, eí, oí, uí, ía, íe, ío, íu). —Stephen (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * See Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 June 7 and Reference desk/Archives/Science/2017 June 7.
 * In Portuguese we may have three successive vowels, with an accent on the first (e.g. jóia, "jewel").  Can this happen in other languages?   Often the accent marks the disappearance of a preceding consonant, e.g. baía, "bay", (missing h), juízes, "judges", (L. acc. sing. iudicem), raízes, "roots", (L. radicem).   Most frequently the missing consonant is l:  (saúde, "health", L. salutem, dor, "pain", L. dolorem, muitos, "many", L. acc. pl. multos).   In French the missing consonant is often an s, e.g. août, "August", L. Augustus, maître, "master", L. magistrum.   A missing g features in German - Mädchen, "maiden".   Are there other examples? 86.131.233.223 (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Reglos
In irgendeinem Gedicht gibs das Wort "reglos." Ist das nur immer «ohne sich zu bewegen» oder kann das auch «ohne zu regeln» oder noch was anderes bedeuten? Temerarius (talk) 18:20, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Something about whether the word means "motionless" or "without regulation"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

reglos = regungslos, unbeweglich (Wahrig Deutsches Wörterbuch) (motionless or immovable)Ehrenkater (talk) 20:38, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

By the way, you could also have looked here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reglos Ehrenkater (talk) 20:47, 28 July 2018 (UTC)