Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 March 2

= March 2 =

Author John Flanagan influenced by Tolkien?
In John Flanagan's The Ranger's Apprentice series, the enemy is named Morgoroth, which is very similar to the Valar Morgoth in Tolkien's Silmarillion. Is this merely a coincidence, or was Flanagan influenced by Tolkien in his naming? --Nerd1a4i (talk) 00:07, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I remember, around 28 years ago, attending a talk by a then-newly prominent fantasy writer, in which he said that for anyone writing High fantasy, Tolkien was like a huge boulder in the road, and you could detour around him, climb over him or tunnel under him, but you couldn't ignore him. Similarly, the Literature section in Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien makes his pervasive influence on the genre clear, so Flanagan is almost inevitably working under both conscious and unconscious Tolkien influences, and in a revived genre largely shaped by him.
 * Languages and their sounds were a major theme and tool of Tolkien, who was after all a professional Philologist as well as a prose and poetry writer, so it is unsurprising that some of the linguistic tropes that he deployed or created have become pervasive in the genre and beyond; that words or names containing and combining syllables like 'mor' (with its related implication of 'death') and 'oth', and gutterals like 'g', imply dark and sinister associations has become a given in the language.
 * Observations similar to the one you make of Flanagan could also be made of many other writers in the field (or so I think as a lifelong reader of High fantasy fiction*), but a definite answer would require that Flanagan himself state that he consciously chose 'Morgoroth' with 'Morgoth' in mind, or that he was unconsciously influenced to do so by Tolkien directly or by the linguistic conventions of the genre that Tolkien established.
 * [* I'm currently reading a 2017 fantasy novel, The Tethered Mage by Melissa Caruso, which differs markedly in style, themes and milieu to Tolkien's works, namely first-person female narration featuring Renaissance-style international politics centred on a fantasy counterpart to Venice, but even so I'm noticing minor echoes of Tolkien here and there in the geographical names and topography.]
 * {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.220.212.253 (talk) 01:38, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It sounds even closer to Tolkien's "Gorgoroth" - which is actually a place name, rather than a character. It is certainly right that Tolkien is so ubiquitous in the fantasy sector that it has become almost impossible to write anything that does not reflect his work in some way. However, it is also true that Tolkien was notably influenced by earlier writers of fantasy (though they tend to be less well known today), and there are plenty of things in Tolkien which show where he was influenced by others. Wymspen (talk) 12:21, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course Tolkien was influenced by others, and I am long familiar with writers like William Morris, Lord Dunsany and E. R. Eddison to name the most obvious – that's why I referred to a revived genre of High fantasy; it had fallen out of popular fashion (in Britain, at any rate) before the success of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings in the 1950s and '60s revived it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.220.212.253 (talk) 19:17, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I won't say nuffin. But *mor/mur has to do with death in old english and PIE. And -oth with its negative connotations is pretty obvious to any ME speaker. What was the question here? μηδείς (talk)


 * The The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R. Donaldson has a character called Berek Halfhand, which reminded me somewhat of Tolkien's Beren the One-handed. It was the last high fantasy novel that I read. Alansplodge (talk) 10:15, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Nerd1a4i -- In the King James Bible "-oth" is the way that the Hebrew feminine plural ending is transcribed, in "Behemoth" and "Ashtaroth", but also in "Rehoboth"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:35, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Is there a relation between the word "Christians" and the word "cross"?
Based on wikipedia "Christian" derives from the Koine Greek word Christós (Χριστός), a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach (Biblical Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ).". So far I always assumed that the word from the word "cross" and it makes sense to me much more than saying that it is the translation of the word "mashiach" of the biblical Hebrew". Maybe the one who translated "mashiach" into "Christós" did it based on the fact the Jesus who was crucified was also the mashiach. I think that there are such cases of translations. I'm not sure if it's my own opinion or it's not new idea about the origin of the word "Christians". I'd like to know about that. 93.126.116.89 (talk) 16:01, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The Greek Χριστός is the noun/adjective form of the verb Χριστειν meaning "to rub" (as in, to rub with oil, or "annoint".) It is a literal translation of the hebrew word, and the similarity to words meaning "cross" is a false friend relationship, cross being derived from the latin word "crux" which originally meant a pole or gibbet; I think the original latin meaning had little to do with the cross shape, though it later came to mean just that (the original crux was a simple pole driven in the ground, which evolved into the familiar crucifix shape.)  -- Jayron 32 16:11, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Christos is Greek, and as already said it means "anointed" and is a direct translation of the Hebrew Mashiach (which was also transliterated into Greek as Messias, which gives us Messiah). The Greek for cross is stauros (the origin of the modern Greek name Stavros), and is totally unrelated to Christos. Wymspen (talk) 16:23, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The idea that "Christ" is derived from "cross" is of course impossible, since "cross" is English and English did not exist at the time that "Christ" was first used. The slightly more plausible, but still incorrect, idea that they are cognates is a typical example of folk etymology. Determining word origins can't be done solely by looking at the modern form of the words; it's necessary to study the history of the word usages to determine their actual origins, and in this case, as discussed above, the evidence is clear that the words are unrelated. This reminds me of the similarly incorrect idea that "Christ" is cognate with "Krishna" as seen here.  CodeTalker (talk) 16:54, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * My language is not English, and I cannot understand how one could imagine English "Christ" and English "cross" could be in any way etymologically related: They are written differently and when I listen I cannot recognize any similarity. But maybe I'm blinded by the prejudice that I and O cannot have a common ancestor. Are there any examples of cognates differing by I and O? (let's forget the Ch/C conflict) 194.174.76.21 (talk) 17:44, 2 March 2018 (UTC) Marco Pagliero Berlin
 * Fish (English) and Poisson (French), both derive from PIE *pisk. . -- Jayron 32 20:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Code Talker and Wymspen are correct. Xristos is Greek for "anointed" and crux is Latin for "cross", with no relation betwixt. μηδείς (talk) 20:35, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

However, in Slavic languages, the two seem to be related. In Serbian, Christians are called hrišćani < Hrist 'Christ', while in Croatian, the word is kršćani < krst 'cross' (and generally, the Orthodox Slavs derive the word from "Christ", while the Catholic ones from "cross"). However, according to this etymology, Common Slavic *krьstъ 'cross' actually stems from Old High German Krist, Christ. No such user (talk) 13:33, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Meaning of "fit you for slippers"
B is in a psychiatric institution. He was deemed crazy for seeing a monster. A starts to believe in the monster in question, and she's telling B about it.

From Before I Wake (2016 film).

A: I watched it take my husband. B:I wouldn't say that around here. They fit you for slippers.

I get the meaning is more or less: "they'll believe you are crazy too." However, what is the expression here? I couldn't find it in the dictionary consulted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.159.165.102 (talk) 17:18, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure there's a standard expression, but the idea is that in a hospital, including a mental institution, patients remove their street shoes and wear slippers instead. So "they're fitting you for slippers" is short for "they are measuring the size of your feet to give you slippers that fit properly" and the implied meaning is "they (the hospital staff) will take you in as a patient (because they will think you are out of your mind as well)". --Xuxl (talk) 18:37, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I understand it in the direction of "If the Slipper Fits". They'll check you for possible mental problems.Hofhof (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The basic meaning is put you in footware that (1) won't harm you (hanging yourself by your shoelaces) and (2) won't allow escape by foot. Watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (film).  I was once set for discharge on March 17th, and the hospital didn't want to release me!  My last name loks Irish, but it is a respelling for people unable to deal with Austro-Hungarian names.  I said, "WTF, do you expect me to go piss standing up on Fifth Ave?"  They realized the objection to my discharge was ridiculous, and I didn't piss on 125th street until the 19th. μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * And why is it relevant that your "last name loks Irish, but it is a respelling for people unable to deal with Austro-Hungarian names. "?--Hofhof (talk) 12:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd guess (absent a response from μηδείς) that it was because March 17th is St Patrick's Day, when American-Irish people are stereotypically expected to get drunk. Perhaps a (New York) hospital might be reluctant to discharge an apparently Irish patient on the day in case they drank to excess while still in a fragile state of health? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.220.212.253 (talk) 13:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I'd had major abdomial surgery (with a 60% survival rate) and been on a morphine drip, and although I had gone from morbidly obese to overweight, they also wouldn't discharge me until I put on ten pounds, when I was happy to keep losing weight. Oh, and I was discharged with a prescription for morphine.  But I do so hate me nothing more than a parade. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Aha, so now we know your real name: Wolfgang O'Medeis. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:45, 3 March 2018 (UTC)