Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 May 1

= May 1 =

What is the origin of the word "banya" (sauna)?
What is the origin of the word "banya" (sauna)? According to Wiki-dictionary it's from Russian but Russian says that the origin is in Greek. Who's right? 93.126.116.89 (talk) 02:30, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's no conflict. Wiktionary says it comes from Russian баня. That entry's Russian etymology shows that it comes through Latin balneum from Greek βαλανεῖον (balaneîon).  Rojomoke (talk) 04:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the answer. 93.126.116.89 (talk) 00:30, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Whence also Spanish bañera, Italian bagno and so on. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:42, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

English reform spelling
Hi, Is there any chance to see an English spelling reform any time soon? Or the language is talked in too many countries to find an agreement? Do you think that some alternative spellings like thru or nite will ever be considered acceptable? Ericdec85 (talk) 11:28, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Unlikely.  See Simplified Spelling Society. 86.133.58.104 (talk) 11:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, they've been trying since 1908, so don't hold your breath. See also BBC News - Should we simplify spelling?, Why we'll never be able to change the ridiculously complicated spelling system of the English language and English-language spelling reform. Alansplodge (talk) 11:46, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Just the debate over "favor" vs. "favour" would be a debacle. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:12, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Since 1908? Your own linked article states that A Plea for Phonetic Spelling dates back to 1848. --194.213.3.4 (talk) 14:03, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 194.213.3.4 -- Apparently the Simplified Spelling Society goes back to 1908, but English spelling-reform proposals go back to the 16th century (see John Hart (spelling reformer)), or even the 12th century, if you count the Ormulum. Benjamin Franklin once made a proposal (see Benjamin Franklin's phonetic alphabet)... AnonMoos (talk) 14:51, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Ericdec85 -- some reformed spellings were used in the Chicago Tribune newspaper under "Colonel" McCormick in the early 20th century, and occasionally taken up by people like Teddy Roosevelt, but without any particular lasting effects (though the spelling "THRU" can be seen on some road signs). AnonMoos (talk) 14:51, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There are some informal spelling changes which have taken partial hold in an informal way, mostly around simplifying complex letter clusters, as noted above with the nonstandard, but common "thru" for "through", or with the numerous -borough town names, many of which have been simplified as "-boro". The last major spelling reforms in English were probably the reforms of dictionary writer Noah Webster, who codified the spelling of many words into their modern American forms; these reforms explain most of the differences between American and British spellings (-ize vs. -ise, -or vs. -our, -se vs. -ce, and so on)  -- Jayron 32 16:29, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually -ise is a British innovation that was not copied left of the Pond. So-called Oxford spelling matches usual British spelling in most regards, but retains the conservative -ize form in these words. --Trovatore (talk) 00:49, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of the difference is that American English retains archaisms while British English has moved on.  The BBC's list of 50 "most noted" Americanisms contains no fewer than 17 of these, e.g.


 * "that'll learn you" for "that'll teach you" (1382)
 * "to wait on" for "to wait for" (?1390)
 * "half hour" for "half an hour" (1420)
 * "zee" for "zed" (1677)

See Lynne Murphy, The Prodigal Tongue,. 81.155.220.223 (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And that's not spelling, it's usage. A big can of worms to tackle! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:03, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ... and that's a metaphor. Richard Avery (talk) 10:38, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

french j'etais vs j'ai ete
Hi, We all know that in French, you use the imperfect for states that were generally true in the past. So how would you use etre in the perfect tense? When would you say "J'ai ete froid." and not "J'etais froid"? How do you judge which one to use? Je vous remercie, IBE (talk) 15:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "être froid" for a person is wrong. It should be "avoir froid". As for this specific situation "j'avais froid" means "I was cold", while "j'ai eu froid" means "I became cold". --2001:16B8:2E1D:BD00:1819:6D61:6649:E729 (talk) 15:27, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Oh, crap, avoir froid was just about the first thing they taught us ;) any more answers/ideas welcome, regards IBE (talk) 15:56, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * French guy here ;) We use "être froid" (lit: to be cold) to mean "one's body is cold": "This man is dying, il est froid". We use "avoir froid" (lit: to have cold) for "to be cold": "Il a froid, he didn't bring a jacket". I would almost always use "J'ai eu froid" in the past. Doesn't matter if it lasts in time or not. "J'ai eu froid when I used to live in Canada." or "J'ai eu froid when I entered the room". I would use "J'avais froid" only to express that it's now over. "J'avais froid but now it's getting warmer.". Hope it helps ;) Ericdec85 (talk) 16:04, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * That definitely helps ;) thanks, but actually it seems in contrast to other things. Is this general? J'ai ete heureux rather than j'etais heureux, for normal être + adjective? All comments welcome, but it looks like it might be very idiomatic in native speaker discourse. IBE (talk) 08:45, 2 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Same thing, I've never really thought about it but it seems that we use "j'étais heureux" when it's no longer the case anymore (like "I used to be happy" in English). "J'étais heureux with my wife until she left me". "J'ai été heureux" for any other cases. "J'ai été heureux de travailler ici" (I've been happy to work here) or for a short time: "J'ai été heureux the first two days and then I wanted to run away from there". Ericdec85 (talk) 09:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)


 * thanks, i was definitely using "j'étais" far too much. So this is common to all native speakers? IBE (talk) 15:28, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is standard French all over the country and also abroad. There are different accents and sometimes different words but the use of tenses is the same everywhere. I guess it's the same in English. There are also a few things that you will learn from a teacher or read in texts but that you will almost never hear in real life like "ne ... pas" (we never say "ne": je parle pas français), "nous" (we use "on": we won, on a gagné) or the future simple (we just use "aller + verbe": we will win, on va gagner). If you mix all, a French teacher will teach you "nous ne gagnerons pas", which sounds like old-fashioned French (kind of "we shall not win"). "On va pas gagner" is what anyone would say. Ericdec85 (talk) 16:00, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * In a narrative at the imperfect tense, you would stick to the imperfect, to be consistent: "Nous attendions le bus dehors, j'avais froid". --Lgriot (talk) 12:13, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Deciphering Latin lyrics from a song
I would like some help deciphering two lines from this song that are in Latin, and then translate them if possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53zPQ3p_6Z4 (Duration is from 01:25 to 01:39)

I can only make out ″Marspiter ultor, nostra nobis ______. Marspiter ultor, da nobis vi ma ___.″ I believe the first line has three words (I keep hearing ″tatum tur″), the second has one word (sounds like ″buchere″), but I could easily be wrong.

Thank you in advance --72.235.231.236 (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * It is clearly Marspiter Ultor (the name of Mars given by Augustus as a god of war). After that, it is very hard to hear through the drums. It sounds like it is "ostende nobis voluntatum tuam", which would be roughly "we are for you" or "we will show you" or even "we will do what you want". Literally, it is "show, we will, for you". That is all assuming that I made out the words. The second Marsipiter Ultor sounds like it is followed by "da nobis ad fortitudinem interficere", which I make out to be "give us strength/power/will to kill." I am not positive it is Latin. It could be Italian and my mind is just making up words that appear to make some sort of sense. It is really very hard to make out. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 16:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, other anon, but shouldn't "ostende nobis voluntatum tuam" mean "make clear to us your will"? I don't understand how you got "we are" or "we will" from "ostende nobis"; I think it is an imperative verb, followed by a dative. You can check possible readings with Whitaker's Words here: http://archives.nd.edu/words.html 164.107.80.170 (talk) 19:39, 2 May 2018 (UTC)


 * When I read it, I read it as "show, we will, for you". I get the "we will" from nobis indicating us or we and tuam indicating a willingness to action (accusative). If it were tuus, I wouldn't assume that the "we" or "us" were taking any action. But, I could have read it completely wrong. Perhaps the action is on the "show" and not "us." Also, I could have completely misheard the lyrics because they are drowned out. Further, I am assuming that the Latin is valid. It is easy for a death metal band to go to Google Translate and get a Latin phrase that is not actually valid. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 12:34, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "Ostende nobis voluntatum tuam" could only mean "show your will to us" or similar. "Nobis" is only the dative (or ablative) plural of "nos". There is no way to say "we will" by itself in Latin. The future is always built into the verb, and there's normally no need to give a pronoun (person and number are also built into the verb). Adam Bishop (talk) 20:52, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


 * ″Voluntatum tuam″ and ″Da nobis ad fortitudinem interficere″ make perfect sense to me, because a stanza at the end of the song has them sing ″Marspiter Ultor, show us your will; give us the strength to kill″ in English. And yeah, it would be easy for any metal band to use an online translating programme, but I am confident the spoken Latin is legitimate, as the band is from Italy, and their first album is sung almost entirely in Italian and Latin. It's not broken and ″vulgar″ like Globus or Ex Deo is. I probably should've mentioned the context of the song earlier, my bad.


 * ″Nostra/Ostende nobis voluntatem tuam″ matches up perfectly now that I hear it a few times more. I don't exactly hear ″fortitudinem interficere″ in the second line yet, but that's probably because my brain keeps insisting it hears five syllables and a /vi:/ phonetic in there. I can hear how you got ″interficere″ though. Still, thank you very much for the help! --72.235.231.236 (talk) 08:56, 5 May 2018 (UTC)