Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 May 11

= May 11 =

the meaning of "as"
The context is:"This victory, coming as it did at a time when Athens' traditional democratic government had been replaced by an oligarchy, and when an Athenian defeat could have ended the war, had an impact out of proportion to its tactical significance." Does "as" here mean "because"? Thanks a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.176.120 (talk) 16:30, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * No, "as it did" is a semi-idiomatic phrase meaning "the way it happened" or something similar. In this context "coming as it did" means "coming in the way that when it did".  -- Jayron 32 16:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that quote comes from the article called Battle of Cynossema. Bus stop (talk) 16:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I think a better paraphrase of the plain emphatic meaning (considered redundant in WP's preferred encyclopedic style) is simply "when it did". Should be cut with no loss, and some gain in clarity and readability if sentence recast, thus:
 * "This victory had an impact out of proportion to its tactical significance, coming when Athens' traditional democratic government had been replaced by an oligarchy and an Athenian defeat could have ended the war." -- Paulscrawl (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks for link, and thanks  for pointing out problematic style, now corrected in article.  -- Paulscrawl (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Definition of decadent
Chocolate is described or marketed as decadent. Is "decadence" supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing? Is this supposed to mean "characterized by or reflecting a state of moral or cultural decline" or something else? How does chocolate cause a state of moral decline? 2600:387:0:80D:0:0:0:B4 (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a joke, son. It's wild exaggeration, just to be funny about something that tastes really good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Cf. Hedonismbot in Futurama, who likes to be slathered in chocolate. Decadent these days is often no more than a way of saying "self-indulgent", the moral nuance of which seems to depend on whether it's one's own self or someone else's that's being indulged. Deor (talk) 22:27, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's typical trivialization away from the original meaning. Such as calling a strict café owner a "soup Nazi" or referring to perceived unfair treatment as a "lynching". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Isn't this more akin to "wicked" coming to mean "good"? (I.e. either irony and/or because what one person thinks is bad, another thinks is good). Iapetus (talk) 09:13, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's the same joke. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's an essayistic but academic book I read a decade or more ago -- I think titled Decadence orOn Decadence or something similarly straightforward -- that ably demonstrates how the term "decadence" has long been used with a dizzying variety of meanings, and very often with little or no meaning. -- Hoary (talk) 02:21, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Richard Gilman's Decadence: The Strange Life of an Epithet (1979). Deor (talk) 14:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the one. (Well done, Deor!) It's somewhat prolix but a worthwhile read all the same. -- Hoary (talk) 03:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Having ten teeth? DuncanHill (talk) 02:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The quality of being 10 years long? --76.69.47.55 (talk) 10:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Or having ten teeth decayed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:56, 12 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm sure it's only tangentially related, but the Decadent movement also uses the term similarly to the way we do with chocolate: "an aesthetic ideology of excess and artificiality", so the diminution of the term cannot be blamed on the good people at Cadbury. Matt Deres (talk) 22:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I wonder whether the frequent Communist Bloc references in the 1950s and 1960s to Western decadence gave rise to a closer association with luxury and over-indulgence? There wasn't much of that in the Soviet system. Alansplodge (talk) 22:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * From jealousy, maybe? Reminded of the Will Rogers comment, "In Russia, they ain't got no income tax. But they ain't got no income!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:55, 16 May 2018 (UTC)