Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 May 18

= May 18 =

Vowel in dog
Technically, the vowel in the word dog is the same as the sound as in straw. But phonics teachers classify it as a short o as in the word ox. Why?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Where I come from, Australia, those two vowel sounds are distinctly different. I would agree with your phonics teachers. Not sure what you mean by "technically". HiLo48 (talk) 01:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * (ec)I'd like to see a citation for that. Maybe in British English, to do with the "cot/caught" thing, but certainly not in American English. In America "dog" rhymes with "bog", "fog", "hog" and "log"; but not with "cog", "jog" or "tog" where the "o" is more like the "o" in "ox". And "ox" rhymes with "box", "docks", "fox", "hocks", "locks", "mocks", "knocks", "Knox", "pox", "rocks", "socks/sox", etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:29, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Here in England, UK, dog is /dɒɡ/ and straw is /strɔː/. They are very different vowels.  I don't know what dialect BB is thinking of, but the Cot–caught merger does not occur in standard British English, nor in the part of Cumbria where I live (though it might occur near to the Scottish border).  Our article says that the merger occurs in "many North American English accents".  Presumably, Georgia guy's phonics teacher speaks with one of these.  Here in the UK, we don't have the distinction that BB claims between dog and cog, in fact all of BB's words have the same short vowel. Do all Americans make BB's distinction?  I would expect to hear /dɑɡ/ and /kɑɡ/ in standard American, (different from /strɔ/), though I appreciate that there are variations.   Dbfirs  06:51, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Really? I'm surprised.  I would expect to hear /dɒɡ/ maybe in Chicago, by one of the Blues Brothers on a mission from Gahd.  As an American without the cot–caught merger (or at least the merger is incomplete), I would use the "caught" vowel for "dog". --Trovatore (talk) 06:58, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, so you would regard /dɔɡ/ as standard American? I must listen to American newscasters more carefully.  I'm probably interpreting /ɔ/ in a more English way than you are, and thinking of /ɔː/.   Db<i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  07:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Standard American CINC accents, yes. Though I have to say I've never understood the difference between /ɒ/ and /ɑ/ so there may be an issue there as well. --Trovatore (talk) 07:47, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * For this American, all those og words have /ɔ/, contrasting with the vowel of ox etc. —Tamfang (talk) 21:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Yesssss, there is a difference between General American accent and British accent. In General American accent, the "o" of dog (as well as every stressed "o" followed by any of the final consonants of: froth loss off song), is pronounced like the vowel of straw (rather than like that of pot). However, in RP (and near-RP) accent (as well as in most of British accents), the "o" of dog (as well as every stressed "o" followed by any final consonant including any of the final consonants of: froth loss off song), is pronounced like the vowel of pot (rather than like that of straw). HOTmag (talk) 09:44, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * To me, dog, fog, pot, ox, box and straw all have the same vowel [ɔ]. Not sure what kind of English accent I speak, but I live in Poland, FWIW. Also, foot and boot have the same vowel [u] to my ears. — Kpalion(talk) 15:25, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It sounds as if you have an American English accent for some of the words, though there isn't a big difference between /ɔ/ and /ɒ/. See foot for the pronunciations of foot (/fʊt/).  [u] is the vowel of but in northern English dialects, but standard British English has /bʌt/.  Boot has a long version of your [u] vowel: /buːt/ in standard British English.   <i style="color: blue;">D</i><i style="color: #0cf;">b</i><i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  15:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think they have an American accent (at last not GA), because Americans (at least GA speakers) do make a distinction between straw and pot (whose vowel is pronounced in GA like the first vowel of father rather than like that of straw). Additionally, GA speakers, like British English speakers, make a distinction also between the vowel of foot (being like that of full) and the vowel of boot (being like that of fool). HOTmag (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * So that's all of the USA, then, not just Tennessee? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure if in "all" of the USA, but this is the case in General American accent. HOTmag (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The OP needs to understand that not every dialect deals with these vowels in the same way. Particularly in English, there are a number of vowel shifts and vowel mergers which mean that "o"-type vowels (known to linguists as back vowels).  If you want to read more, there's Phonological history of English low back vowels, which covers many of the dialectical differences, it's important to note that whether or not any of these words are pronounced similar or different, and exactly what vowel is used, depends greatly on WHICH dialect of English you are speaking.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 16:04, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Then there's the "country" way of saying it, if you remember a TV ad for Hush Puppies shoes where a guy from Appalachia says, "Mah dah-ohgs can breathe!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't, but I remember Deputy Dawg. --Antiquary (talk) 09:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Is that how at least some 17th century Scottish or English dialects would've said dog? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:25, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Jayron, what's the rest of the sentence which mean that "o"-type vowels ? —Tamfang (talk) 21:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Foreign word sort of similar to admiration
I was doing an assignment recently which touched upon emotions which have no translation to English (such as saudade or mono no aware), and came across one I meant to note down but which have now lost. It was along the lines of witnessing somebody you respect or admire (not necessarily someone you know - actually it might even HAVE to be someone you have no relationship with) accomplishing something against all odds, or making a noble sacrifice, or so on. Admiration doesn't quite cover it because it's meant to relate directly to that moment; giving you a sense of narrative frisson, sort of. (Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ean6zzWgvXU) I have a feeling it was Japanese but I might be wrong. Any takers? Dr-ziego (talk) 05:24, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Goes like the clappers
My neighbour he telling me he has new girl friend who "goes like the clappers". Is he meaning that she get applause for something. Or is something to do with clapboards, which are used in the house building trade I think. Thanking you for answer. 86.187.167.45 (talk) 16:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * No, to go like the clappers is an English idiom meaning to go very fast. The interpretation of "go" depends on the context.  I leave it to your imagination.  The phrase is recorded by Eric Partridge as RAF slang in 1948.  The clappers might refer to the "tongues" of bells, but personally I think the "clappers" that were used to shake grain hoppers might be a more likely derivation.  Citation needed for that suggestion because it is only my opinion, and there is a 200-year gap between common usage of mill clappers and the RAF usage.   <i style="color: blue;">D</i><i style="color: #0cf;">b</i><i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  17:14, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Your wife, does she go, eh, does she go? DuncanHill (talk) 18:27, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * like the clappers has an explanation from Partridge (linked above) that it may be rhyming slang - 'clappers of a bell' = 'hell' - i.e. "go like hell". In this context, as User:Dbfirs alludes above, it seems likely to refer to the young lady's enthusiasm in the bedroom. Alansplodge (talk) 18:32, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, that must be a very musical bedroom. But isn't there an alternative etymology that has something to do with French rabbits? No really. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I say, Ding Dong! DuncanHill (talk) 18:38, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Oddly, yes, though there's probably nothing in it. --Antiquary (talk) 09:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * We wouldn't want to fall down an etymological rabbit hole here. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC) or, alternatively... "pull the other one, it's got bells on."

Help with Chinedum Ndukwe
Hey I've posted on here before for help adding IPA to articles in the past, so I'm hoping to get help again. I have plenty of expierence as an editor, but I don't know a thing about IPA. I hear IPA and I think of this lol. The page is Chinedum Ndukwe an American football player. It has a phonetic spelling in the article, which is accurate on how to pronounce his name, but it does not have the actual IPA on there. If someone could add that for me I would appreciate it. Thank you.-- Rockchalk 717 22:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. When requesting a transcription in the future, though, I recommend you provide a reliable source, such as a link to an audio of the person introducing themselves, rather than an unsourced respelling that you know is "accurate". "n-DUQUE-ay" can never be accurate as it can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Nardog (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't even add that. I came across the article saw the phonetic spelling and figured I would ask. I did think about looking for one to source. Thank you.-- Rockchalk 717 00:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Then how did you know it was accurate? Nardog (talk) 00:23, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Because he played for my favorite team....... I've heard his name said many times watching him play. I didn't just randomly stumble across this article. I edit pages that interest me. Football (pro and college) basketball (pro and college) and MMA primarily with the occasional movie or artist page I edit.-- Rockchalk 717 00:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Then can you confirm whether the last syllable of the first name is pronounced with "oo" as in "boots" or as in "foot"? Even "CHIN-uh-doom en-DUKE-way" that I found in an article was ambiguous in this regard, and this is one of the reasons we prefer IPA. No matter what our interests, be they sports or phonetics, those of us here on Wikipedia strive for verifiable accuracy. Nardog (talk) 00:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The way I've always heard the "dum" part is like "doom". Most sources I found show it like that too.-- Rockchalk 717 02:48, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Good, the transcription I gave in the article corresponds to what you describe. The thing is, however, just because the syllable is respelled "doom" doesn't necessarily indicate the person who wrote it meant it to be pronounced like the word doom. English orthography doesn't have a way of indicating the sound of foot, /ʊ/, in a consistent and reliable way, as it's sometimes represented by "oo" (foot, book) and at other times by "u" (put, pull), which are more often read as /uː/ (boot, doom) and /ʌ/ (putt, cut), respectively. In our respelling key the sound of foot is written "uu", but I don't think many readers would find it intuitive or be able to pronounce it readily. Nardog (talk) 03:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Cursory searches on YouTube corroborate a in my ears, though I'd also say that the last syllable has secondary stress, which is part of a common pattern in English stress. — Æµ§œš¹ <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"> [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  04:23, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The thing is, however, just because the syllable is respelled "doom" doesn't necessarily indicate the person who wrote it meant it to be pronounced like the word doom. - But (s)he probably did. 3 out of 6 syllables in that transcription are actual words (chin, duke and way), so I wouldn't expect doom to stand for when the author provides no evidence for that.


 * For what it's worth, LPD says that $\langleu\rangle$ for is less common than either  or  and it occurs especially before  and  (as in push and pull). Plus, if that syllable has true secondary stress, don't forget that AmE prefers tense vowels (so also  rather than  or ) in stressed syllables of loanwords.


 * All in all, I'm pretty convinced that the vowel is . Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:03, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Gotcha well it appears other users on this page seem to agree with the way you put it on the page specifically "dum" part of his first name. I have heard it pronounced (albeit incorrectly) like the "u" is an "i" instead of like "oo". I'm satisfied with what you put in and the feedback other users have given. I appreciate the help! This is what Wikipedia is all about right here. Thank you.-- Rockchalk 717 05:42, 19 May 2018 (UTC)