Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 May 27

= May 27 =

History of as...as and so...as
I think that 50 years ago most grammarians thought it was proper to use as...as in positive statements and so...as in negative statements. What is the origin of this rule?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:27, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your question. Can you give a concrete example of each?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Examples:


 * Cats are as smart as dogs.


 * This is a positive statement.


 * Cats are not as smart as dogs.


 * This is the negative statement of the kind I'm talking about. Georgia guy (talk) 17:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * See As versus so in negative comparisons. Alansplodge (talk) 17:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * You still didn't provide any examples using "so ... as". --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * To clarify, note that grammarians until about 50 years ago thought that "so...as" was the proper phrase to use in negative comparisons. Thus, they would consider the former of my examples to be correct but the latter wrong and that it should use "so...as". Georgia guy (talk) 21:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Jack, from the source linked above: "He did not do so well as the experts had expected" (old style) vs "He did not do as well as the experts had expected" (modern style). Alansplodge (talk) 10:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Interesting, I was not aware of that old distinction but I have heard people say "he's not doing so well" or "This film isn't so interesting". -- Q Chris (talk) 13:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Bieberbach etymology/meaning in German
I was reading a mathematics book (Mathematical Conversations, by Robin Wilson and Jeremy Gray) and came to the name Bieberbach (a famous mathematician).

What an interesting name: the juxtaposition of the worst and best musicians of all time (just kidding!).

Seriously, though: what does bieber means in German? I know that bach means something like creek or brook, but I have no clue about bieber. Is it something related to water courses? Is it an adjective?

Thanks in advance. Mdob (talk) 21:53, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It appears that it means "Beaver". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * (ec) I (German) don't know any meaning of Bieber, only Biber=beaver. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Oh, so Bieberbach means something like "beaver creek"? It makes sense. It's also interesting that Justin Bieber surname also means beaver ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 * Thank you, Baseball Bugs and Gerda Arendt. Mdob (talk) 22:22, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Bach is indeed German for a small river or brook. Bieber and Bieberbach both occur quite frequently in German-speaking countries as names of small rivers and towns, but Bieber itself is not a word in current German. Biber (pronounced the same as Bieber) means beaver (though not in the vulgar sense). Biber is also the name of a spiced pastry in Switzerland, Austria, and southern Germany. (It is similar to Printen or Lebkuchen.) While it isn't impossible that the Bieber in Bieberbach refers Biber in one of its senses (beaver seeming more plausible), the etymology of placenames and names of geographical features (German, English, and other) is notoriously tricky and, unless there are old spellings to rely on as evidence, you should not assume Bieberbach means Beaverbrook (which happens to be the name of a rather different Canadian). --Frans Fowler (talk) 01:01, 28 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Frans, for your late but wellcome reply. I liked your explicit example of a person with (the English equivalent of) the name Bieberbach. You (indirectly) also made me look up the towns Beaver Creek (disambiguation) and Beaver Brook (disambiguation)


 * This was the in-depth answer I was looking for from the Reference Desk. You just earned yourself a Barnstar! Thank you. Mdob (talk) 15:28, 28 May 2018 (UTC)


 * PS. I know you don't want me to assume "Bieberbach" = "Beaverbrook", but now it's too late. This etymology has stuck to my mind. :D Mdob (talk) 15:35, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The etymology unfolds as follows: Step 1: the surname Bieberbach means in New High German "man from Bieberbach", with the spellings of Bieberbach and Biberbach intermingling and Bieberbach denotes most likely a place name. Step 2: the place name "Bieberbach" or "Biberbach" (both spellings occur) means in Middle High German "settlement at the Bi(e)berbach brook". Step 3: the brook name Bi(e)berbach means in Old High German "brook where beavers are". It is kind of irritating to combine the three different etymologies into one. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 20:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)