Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 April 28

= April 28 =

Latin a manuscript from 1343 (?)
In the museum of Hollókő there is an old manuscript on the wall, and there is no translation yet! The museum guide provided this information. The first guess was this is an Ottoman writing, but the typical dots are missing. Rather the wide arches over the characters are significant. Can you help to identify, looking a translation, or pass it to a scientist?

Here are photos of the one sheet script: http://tanarnocafe.hu/tudomany/tortenelem/segits-a-hollokoi-neninek-megfejteni-ezt-az-osi-torok-irast/

The website of the small village museum where it is hanging on the wall: http://www.holloko.hu/hu/info/latnivalok-szolgaltatasok/muzeumok/falumuzeum.html

The Website of responsible Hungarian museologists (They not contacted yet about this exact issue): http://palocmuzeum.hu/szolgaltatasaink/fotoszolgaltatas-digitalizalas-fenymasolat/?lang=en

If more clarification needed, write to me, thanks.

--Rodrigo (talk) 03:25, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty certain the script of the manuscript in is Latin, and I think the language is Latin too, although I can only make out isolated words here and there, not enough to get an idea of the content. The arches over the words that you noticed would be abbreviation marks. It looks a lot older than 1895 though, late medieval rather than modern. Someone more knowledgeable than I am would probably be able to identify the approximate time of writing from the style (my guess is 15th/16th century?).  could you help perhaps? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree^^^ Mid-15th-century Latin, probably a charter—note the relative frequency of apud? ——  SerialNumber  54129  10:10, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It is a Latin charter and its date (1343) is indicated in the last line and confirmed by the writing style and by a M°CCC° ... that can be seen in the gap between help and the exclamation mark. It starts with the name and titles of the issuer, the then Archbishop of Esztergom: Csanád dei et apostolice gratia archiepiscopus Strigoniensis locique [...] comes[?] perpetuus. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 11:33, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Agreed, definitely a medieval Latin charter, and it's helpfully dated 1343 as mentioned. I bet it's probably been transcribed somewhere before...I'll see if I can pick out any phrases. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:00, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Arabic numerals for a date—a later hand, surely? ——  SerialNumber  54129  12:06, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah that was probably added later. It has been transcribed, by the way. I found it in Codex diplomaticus hungaricus andegavensis, pg. 370, n. 221 (although some bits weren't transcribed, which I've added in square brackets - I didn't compare the entire thing to the manuscript image so I'm not sure if the rest of it is 100% accurate either):
 * Chanadimus [dei et apostolica gratia] archiepiscopus Strigoniensis locique eiusdem comes perpetuus [missing bit] Paulo de Scechem, Nicolao de Rymolch, Petro de Loch et Gregorio de Waralia ecclesiarum sacerdotibus [salutem in domino benedictionem eam ?? ]. dicit nobis religiosus vir frater Ambrosius prepositus de Garab ordinis premonstratensium conquerendo, quod feria quinta próxima post festum Nativitatis virginis gloriose proxime iam preteritum quidam rustici de villa Sun et de Aralia ac de Bache, dei timore postposito tamquam immemores eorum salutis, ad domum ipsius in villam Garab accessessisent, et ipsum ibidem sine culpis suis exigentibus interficere voluissent, ipseque prepositus timens mortis amaritudinem, ad monasterium fugisset et in sacristiam ipsius monasterii intravisset, ipsique populi tamquam canes rapidi ad monasterium accedentes et ostium eius et sacristie ad predictum prepositum confringentes, dictusque prepositus in sui defensionem unum parvum scrinium in quo corpus Christi reservabatur, ad manus eius recepisset. Predictique populi ad terram ipsum scrinium confregissent, et insuper quelibet bona tam ipsius monasterii quam eiusdem prepositi omnino exportassent: unde cum nobis de premissis non constaret aliqua rei certitudo, devocioni vestre in virtute sancte obediencie mandamus, quatenus receptis presentibus, accedatis ad premissa inquirenda et videnda, si veritas de premissis sic se habet nec ne; et post hec scita veritate tocius ipsius inquisicionis seriem in vestris literis ad vestre consciencie puritatem nobis rescribatis; ipsosque populos salubriter ammoneatis verbo nostro, ut de premissis factis eorum usque quindenas congruam rependant satisfaccionem, qui si fecerint bene quidem alioquin ipsis quimdenis diebus transactis, auctoritate conservatoria papali contra eosdem procedemus. Datum Strigonii, feria tercia proxima ante festum beatorum Cosme et Damiani martirum, anno domini Mmo CCCmo XLmo tercio." (i.e. Sept. 23, 1343)
 * I'll try to translate this but it will be later today or tomorrow, unless someone wants to take a stab at it first! Adam Bishop (talk) 12:20, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * There is a date in the bottom: 1343. In the Latin Wikipedia I cannot find Info Desk. I am checking also in the Hungarian language help topic. I will update here if any finding.--Rodrigo (talk) 11:47, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

General info about the historical background:
 * Csanád Telegdi acted as royal governor (viceroy) in the Kingdom of Hungary in year 1343 when Queen Elizabeth did supporting visit at his son in South-Italy Andrew, Duke of Calabria.
 * Also that year the tax collectors from the Chatolic pope were in the country.
 * In 1343 (from 1427) the ruler of the Castle of Hollókő was Thomas Szécsényi Master of the treasury.
 * That year the village of Hollókő got a newly built church.


 * The abbreviations point that it is kind of governing ordinance about a local issue.

--Rodrigo (talk) 12:55, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the raw script: Village of Garáb is 5 kilometres from Hollókő. Garáb as older settlement had Monastery of Saint Hubertus till 1436. --Rodrigo (talk) 13:17, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Great! That is very helpful. You're right, it is a local issue, some peasants attacked a monk and he complained to the archbishop, who assigned some local priests to investigate. I couldn't resist translating it right away:


 * Csanád, archbishop and perpetual count of Esztergom, [??? something there I can’t read] to the church priests Paul de Schechem, Nicholas de Rymolch, Peter de Loch, and Gregory de Waralia, sends his greetings and blessings in the lord [? something illegible]. The religious man, brother Ambrose, provost of Garáb, of the Premonstratensian Order, complains to us that on the Friday after the feast of the Nativity of the Glorious Virgin [proxime iam preteritum - maybe as previously mentioned in his letter to Csanád?], certain peasants in the villages of Sun, Aralia, and Bache, disregarding the fear of God and forgetful of their salvation, came to his house in the village of Garab, and wished to kill him there without showing any guilt, and the provost, fearing the bitterness of death, fled to the monastery and entered the sacristy of the monastery, and the people and fast dogs came to the monastery and broke into the gate and [found? Seems to be a verb missing] the provost in the sacristy, and the provost, in his defence, grabbed a small box in which the body of Christ was being stored. And the people shattered the box on the ground, and moreover they took away all the property of both of the monastery and the provost: but since we are not sure whether all of this is true, we command to your devotion, with the virtue of holy obedience, that after you have received this letter, you should go there and investigate and see whether this is true or not; and when you have learned the truth, send us the record of the entire investigation, in the purity of your conscience; and correctly admonish the people with your words, that because of their actions they should do penance for a fortnight, and if they do not behave after the fortnight is over, we will proceed against them under the authority of the papal conservatory. Issued at Esztergom, on the Wednesday before the feast of the martyrs Saints Cosmas and Damian, in the year of the lord 1343.


 * The Nativity of Mary is September 8, so the attack was Friday, September 12, I think? And the Feast of Cosmas and Damian is September 27, so the letter is dated Wednesday, September 24, unless I’m misinterpreting the names of the days of the week, since the published transcription says September 23...


 * , do you know where Schechem, Rymolch, Loch, Waralia, Sun, Aralia, and Bache are? Rymolch is probably Rimóc but I'm not sure about the others. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:37, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The monks there were Premonstratensians. Nearby locations are for Schechem = Szécsény, Rymolch = Rimóc, Luch = Lóc, Waralia = Varsány or Vanyarc(?). The others Sun, Aralia, and Bache are not nearby I think they were travellers. There is not detailed map available from that time. --Rodrigo (talk) 14:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * In the index section of the Codex diplomaticus Hungaricus Andegavensis the places mentioned on p. 370  de villa Sun et de Waralia ac de Bache are identified as follows: Sun, a manor, Waralia = Várallja, Nógrád county, Bache, a proper name. The present copy seemingly has de villa Sun, & de Waralia, ac de Wache [?]. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 23:13, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Note that feria quinta = Thursday = 9-11, feria tercia = Tuesday = 9-23. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, that's right, becauae there's no "feria prima". Monday is feria secunda. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:40, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Is "finite" the only English word (not being a compound) that is pronounced /CaɪCaɪC/, C denoting any consonant (unnecessarily a constant one)?
185.46.76.74 (talk) 07:08, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Highlight", for one.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:20, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Byline", "pyrite" (in some pronunciations), "tieline", "tryline". --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:49, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Pyrite (pronounced /paɪraɪt/ in Wiktionary), is the example I liked the most, because it's the only one (besides "finite") not being a compound. Anyway, thanks to all of the other examples (added by you and by William), I've just added the condition: "not being a compound" to the title of this thread. 185.46.76.74 (talk) 08:04, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Arguably "quinine". Jmar67 (talk) 10:48, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Who brings him the wine?
 * "I," said Quinine,
 * "It's a habit of mine.
 * "I'll come with his wine." DuncanHill (talk) 10:53, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Do any of these words have words with prefixes added to them that change the pronunciation?? All the i's in infinite are short. Georgia guy (talk) 18:47, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The short vowels in "infinite" aren't caused directly by the addition of a prefix, but by the changed position of the stress after the prefix is added... AnonMoos (talk) 06:31, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


 * "zeitgeist" wouldn't fit your criteria, I guess. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * You've guessed correctly. Not only is it pronounced /CCaɪCCaɪCC/ rather than /CaɪCaɪC/, but also it's a compound (borrowed from German). Check: "guideline", "likewise", and likewise. 185.46.78.16 (talk) 07:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Is "unnecessarily" the only English word whose stress is on the fifth last syllable?
185.46.76.74 (talk) 07:09, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Isn't it more often pronounced with stress on the fourth syllable (third from the end) on both sides of the Pond?  Dbfirs  07:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems like the more frequent stress depends on the variety of English used, but maybe I'm wrong. 185.46.76.74 (talk) 07:55, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, the stress on the second syllable is an alternative in British English, though I don't recall hearing it. Perhaps it is regional within the UK.   Db<i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  10:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Second or  fourth syllables  in British English. Bazza (talk) 11:49, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * To state the obvious, necessarily is another. HenryFlower 15:12, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Laboratory https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/laboratory in one version of US pronunciation. Loraof (talk) 19:04, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Like many long English words, the primary stress is on that word is on the antepenult in US English (no idea how other dialects would deal with it). That means the "air" is stressed, as in un-ness-ess-AIR-uh-lee.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 11:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Origin of macron and circumflex
How did each of the macron (used in pronunciation keys to make the o in go) and the circumflex (used above an o to make a sound like the aw in law) originate?? (Not their uses, but the symbols themselves.) Georgia guy (talk) 14:46, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The circumflex is easy -- it's a combination of acute and grave accents. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 16:14, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The macron is a continuation of the function of the ancient "apex" diacritic (which looked like a modern acute accent). Possibly the line slanted down to become flat and/or it was conflated with the ancient macron diacritic, whose original purpose was to mark heavy syllables in poetic scansion... AnonMoos (talk) 17:24, 28 April 2019 (UTC)