Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 July 6

= July 6 =

Quite
In the sentence 'That was quite a good movie', what exactly is the difference in meaning between British and American English? In my speech, 'quite' means better than 'good', but not as good as 'great'. TotallyNotSarcasm [lɪi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈d͡ʒ] [kɔnt͡ʂɻɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 13:43, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * (US English) I use it as a modifier, like "very", so a movie could be "quite good" or "quite bad". It does differ from "very" in that you would never say "It was very a good movie." SinisterLefty (talk) 13:58, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I know, I use it like that too; my question is, how 'strong' is it? As I said, for me, it's between 'good' and 'great' TotallyNotSarcasm [lɨi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈dʒ] [kɔnt͡ɹ̠̝̊ɹ̠ɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 14:47, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree, TNS. IMHO, "quite good" is better than just "good" but not yet "great".--Thomprod (talk) 22:15, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * (British English) It's used, in the example you've given, to indicate that the specified person or thing is perceived as particularly notable, remarkable, or impressive. See . So more than just "good", equivalent to "not bad", less than "very good". Bazza (talk) 14:55, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * No, I think you are reading the definition wrong. "Quite a good movie" would mean "the Movie was alright" or "it was OK". When used with "quite a good" it takes the definition here, ‘a little, moderately but not very’. The "Quite a XXX" is more akin to the usage described with nouns, such as "she was quite an artist", where it does mean "to a large extent".


 * So to summarise, in British English "that was quite a good movie" would mean it was mediocre, whereas "that was quite a movie" would mean it was impressive. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:47, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * So the British use is the same as mine. I've heard that in American English, it's 'stronger', for lack of a better word. TotallyNotSarcasm [lɨi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈dʒ] [kɔnt͡ɹ̠̝̊ɹ̠ɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 15:58, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * It's this. I'm not sure what you mean by "between 'good' and 'great'" (it would be more accurate to think in terms of 'moderately' or 'completely'). In your example sentence, as "good" is a gradable adjective, it means "moderately good". HenryFlower 17:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * In the particular subset of American English I use, "quite good" is much more than "moderately good". The progression would go "moderately good" < "good" < "quite good" < "great". Not sure where "quite good" falls in relation to "very good", whether better or worse.--Khajidha (talk) 17:28, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * "In British English quite good only means pretty good or fairly good, but in American English it's much more positive. Quite good means very good... one last piece of advice for any American guys who are planning a first date with an English girl. Don’t be like one of my American friends and tell her you think she is quite pretty. He was lucky to get a second date". See The trickiest word in American. Alansplodge (talk) 18:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * In colloquial British English, "quite good" is a synonym for "moderately good" or "fairly good", so "quite" reduces "good". This usage can be confusing to Americans, and even to those on this side of the pond who were taught the original meaning of "quite". The OED says "As a moderating adverb: to a certain or significant extent or degree; moderately, somewhat, rather; relatively, reasonably. [...] The shift in meaning being from ‘certainly having the specified character in (at least) some degree’ to ‘having the specified character in some degree (though not completely)’.". The tone distinguishes this usage of "quite" from the older meaning. Dbfirs  18:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I've also heard "Quite." used as a sentence in old British movies:


 * "I fear he's lost his mind."


 * "Quite."


 * What is the meaning there ? I took it as "I agree", but is it somehow saying he's less than totally lost his mind ? SinisterLefty (talk) 19:03, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * No, that's a different usage, a shortening of "quite so" with the American (and older British) meaning. The OED says: "colloquial (chiefly British). As an emphatic affirmation: ‘just so’; ‘absolutely’"   Db<i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  19:28, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Note that the example of "rather" as a moderating adverb is ALSO confusing to Americans. "Rather good" to me would probably seem better than "good" but not as good as "quite good". --Khajidha (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that was a bad example. It's another case where the meaning is distinguished by context and tone.  The OED says for rather: " in a certain degree or measure; to some extent; somewhat, slightly; (also) considerably, very much." and comments that it is often difficult to distinguish which meaning is intended.   <i style="color: blue;">D</i><i style="color: #0cf;">b</i><i style="color: #4fc;">f</i><i style="color: #6f6;">i</i><i style="color: #4e4;">r</i><i style="color: #4a4">s</i>  11:04, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * By the way, in my example I use it to mean 'particularly good', but if I say something is 'quite good', I mean that it's 'kind of good' (not that good but not bad). TotallyNotSarcasm [lɨi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈dʒ] [kɔnt͡ɹ̠̝̊ɹ̠ɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 09:50, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The progression, from better to worse, is 'great' > 'really good' > 'very good' > 'quite a good ' > 'good ' > 'quite good' > 'okay' in my speech. TotallyNotSarcasm [lɨi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈dʒ] [kɔnt͡ɹ̠̝̊ɹ̠ɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 09:54, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

In mine it would be 'great', 'quite a', 'very good', 'good', ('OK', 'quite good', 'quite a good'), 'mediocre', with the three bracketed being roughly the same level -- Q Chris (talk) 10:50, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

In mine it goes: great > quite good > very good > really good > quite a good > good > fairly good > fine > okay > fair > mediocre. And the modified forms of "fine" would follow the same order as the modified forms of "good". --Khajidha (talk) 14:32, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Capitals or not
When referring to south, north, west and east, does English use capital letters for the first ones? I'm kinda confused with this. I sometimes see this with Western/western as well as with different seasons like Spring/spring. Thanks.Tintor2 (talk) 20:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * When used as simple directions, compass points are not capitalized (eg: "the bridge is located north of here"). They are capitalized as part of proper names (West Virginia) or as descriptive phrases (the Old West, the Far East). Seasons are only to be capitalized when treated as personifications ("Old Man Winter") or in proper names. This is all spelled out in the Wikipedia Manual of Style MOS:CAPS. --Khajidha (talk) 21:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * PS - SOME uses of directions to describe regions are capitalized, but most are not. This is one of those times that you should just follow sources. And leave it as lowercase if you can't find any sources.--Khajidha (talk) 21:26, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks.Tintor2 (talk) 22:13, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Khajidha sets out the capitalization style used by Wikipedia, but Tintor2 asked about usage "in English". Remember that there are no official rules of English usage, so sources like dictionaries and style guides only describe what their editors have seen people using or what they think is the best usage.  If you look at older writing in English you will see a number of words like North (the direction), Spring (the season), and Queen (the playing card) treated as proper names and capitalized in all uses.  In still older writing, such as the US Constitution, you will see even more capitalization. I think most people today capitalize in the way Wikipedia does, though.  --76.69.117.113 (talk) 04:38, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Following up on Kajidha's PS, one always capitalizes directions in "the East" (roughly Asia, or the eastern US depending on context–note I did not capitalize "eastern"), "the West" (western Europe and the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, or the western part of the US), etc. Loraof (talk) 18:55, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Correct, because in those examples they are being used as place names. But come on, everyone knows that "the East" and "the West" are parts of Canada. --76.69.117.113 (talk) 19:36, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * As examples: Western Carolina University and East Carolina University are located in the western and eastern portions of North Carolina, respectively. In turn, North Carolina is one of the Southern states, and is found in the southeastern region of the United States.--Khajidha (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * In some cases, the capitalization changes the meaning. For example, South Africa refers to the nation, while "south Africa" refers to the broader region. SinisterLefty (talk) 20:08, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hence the non-ambiguous term, "southern" Africa. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:13, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Good idea, but that doesn't always work, as Southern Rhodesia was the name of a colony at one point, which then became just Rhodesia, and is now Zimbabwe. While it was Rhodesia, you would need to refer to "south Rhodesia" to indicate that region and avoid confusion with the former colony. SinisterLefty (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Then there's "the South". Everyone knows what Americans are referring to when they say that.  But when others want to indicate the same place, they have to resort to "the southern states/part of the United States", unless it's otherwise clear from the context.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:59, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


 * No, they have to refer to the southeastern part. The South stopped being the southern part of the US as the country grew to the west. --76.69.117.113 (talk) 06:45, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, "the South" only extends as far west as Louisiana, or maybe Texas, but not New Mexico and Arizona, and certainly not California. SinisterLefty (talk) 08:15, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Right. Well, when you guys start referring to "the South-East", I'll amend my reference accordingly. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:10, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Kind of like how this American was surprised to find out that "Northern town" had such a specific meaning in British English. --Khajidha (talk) 11:39, 8 July 2019 (UTC)