Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 May 8

= May 8 =

Vowels
How come rounded front vowels were able to make it into Indo-European languages but unrounded back vowels were not?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:15, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Some wikilinks: Proto-Indo-European_phonology, Front rounded vowel, Back vowel. But I have to question your premise. Per our articles, both the Close back unrounded vowel and the Close-mid back unrounded vowel appear in Estonian, Scots Gaelic and New Zealand English. The Open-mid back unrounded vowel appears in French, Russian and a plethora of English dialects and the Open back unrounded vowel appears in even more Indo-European languages, from Danish to Afrikaans to Greek to Norwegian and again, English. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:35, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Estonian is a Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language though. --Theurgist (talk) 17:38, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I mixed up Estonia and Latvia. Removed. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Georgia_guy -- as a general matter, front rounded vowels have a rather distinctive sound, while back unrounded vowels aren't quite so perceptually distinct (and have a tendency to be merged or confused with central unrounded vowels). Most languages with a front-rounded [y] vowel also have both a front-unrounded [i] vowel and a back-rounded [u] vowel in their inventory, but I would bet that a smaller percentage of languages with [ɯ] would have both [i] and [u] (for example, Japanese is lacking [u]).  At the bottom, distinguishing between a low back unrounded vowel and a low central unrounded vowel is mostly not that practically useful... AnonMoos (talk) 01:07, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Horses who
The current ITN blurb on the Kentucky Derby evokes the question of which relative pronoun, "who" or "which", should be applied to horses, who/which are often referred to as "he" or "she". I would argue for "which". Jmar67 (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The horse referred to, Maximum Security (horse), is male and is referred to as "he" in his article. So "who" would be consistent and "which" would create a discrepancy. I can't find any guidance in Manual of Style. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Oxford Dictionaries usage blog recommends using who only with a "person", but that brings up the issue of Personhood and even beyond that, the notion that English has grammatical personhood which is different from biological personhood, or even legal personhood: our pronoun system has both personal (he, she) and impersonal (it) pronouns so whether or not you use "who" or "which" for a horse depends on whether you consider a horse a grammatical person or not. I would use "who" here because horses get "he" or "she" as pronouns, but I'm sure you could defend either position.  -- Jayron 32 23:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Notable individuals with misgendered names
I'm considering writing an essay on the topic of deliberate misgendering being a personal attack, and include a section on the topic that a user using a clearly gendered first name doesn't constitute informing other users of the correct pronoun. For this essay, I would like an example of a man with what is clearly a feminine name, and of a woman with what is clearly a masculine name. In both cases, these people should be clearly notable and from an English-language background. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 21:14, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The first person (apart from pseudonyms) I thought of was Michael Learned, but the article on unisex name gives "Michael" as one example ("Michael Keaton and Michael Learned"). I don't know of any other women named Michael, and Learned's article suggests it really was an odd choice: 'Learned said that her parents never explained why she received a masculine first name, her father telling her elusively: "if I had been a boy, I would have been called Caleb, but I was a girl, so I was called Michael."' ---Sluzzelin talk  21:32, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There is the confusing situation of Princess Michael of Kent. HiLo48 (talk) 02:58, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Traditionally, a woman's first name / given name was not supposed to be directly prefixed with an honorific she owed to her marriage (so "Princess Diana" was wrong, "Diana Princess of Wales" OK). "Princess Michael of Kent" shows the same convention as "Mrs. John Smith" (quite common until at least the early 1960s)... AnonMoos (talk) 04:04, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * In fiction there's Michael Burnham on Star Trek: Discovery. I find the name annoying. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 23:04, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Evelyn Waugh and A Boy Named Sue come to mind. --Wrongfilter (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Funny. That Sue was a fictional character, invented by Shel Silverstein, who got the idea from friend Jean Shepherd, whose name is the French for "John", but the spelling "Jean" (pronounced like "Gene") is kind of unusual in English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:17, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * George Sand? Though not English. Jmar67 (talk) 21:56, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * George Sand is different, a female writer deliberately writing under a male nom de plume.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  22:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * And Evelyn is an established male name, dating at least to 1655. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 22:42, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The actor John Wayne was born Marion Robert Morrison. Marion is a female name just about everywhere. Akld guy (talk) 21:59, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not really. Marianne is female, but variants like Marian and Marion have been unisex for a long time; there have been plenty of famous male Marions through history, though like many unisex names there has been a trend at times for them to shift one way or the other.  Besides John Wayne, history gives us Marion Motley, the American football player, Marion Barry, whom the bitch set up, Marion Barber, another American football player, and those are three more that I could think of off the top of my head.  Marion is not, nor has not for a long time, been a mostly female name.  -- Jayron 32 23:11, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Only in the US is it regarded as a unisex name. Elsewhere it's female, which is why I said "just about everywhere". Akld guy (talk) 05:31, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Marion Spielmann, Marion Silva Fernandes, Marion Seve are three non-Americans I found without looking very hard, and represent three very different parts of the world. It may be in greater use as a female name, but it is not unknown as a male name in many places, and not just the U.S.  The ones I named were all American, because being American I know more Americans off the top of my head, but given the ease in finding these three just with a random search, it's clear it isn't a purely female name.  -- Jayron 32 10:59, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Different spelling but Marian Gaborik, Marian Hossa... Adam Bishop (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Marian (given name) shows more men than women. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 05:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Australia's current prime minister Scott Morrison's mother's name is Marion Morrison. But - and this may surprise some - she did not change it to John Wayne. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:33, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Wrestler Shirley Crabtree. Alansplodge (talk) 22:05, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not really, Shirley was originally an almost exclusively male first name until the middle 1800s, and it gradually became more and more a girl's name; even into the 20th century there have been enough male Shirleys to make it an uncommon, but not unheard of, male name.  Shirley Povich comes immediately to mind, among famous ones, but there have been others if I cared to research it.-- Jayron 32 23:14, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * , in Charlotte Brontë's Shirley, the heiress carefully explains why her parents gave her the masculine name 'Shirley'. --ColinFine (talk) 09:30, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I am much enlightened; thanks. Alansplodge (talk) 17:51, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Shirley, you jest. Clarityfiend (talk) 18:42, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "And don't call me Shirley"  Alansplodge (talk) 21:38, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Also Christopher Norris (actress). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:12, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Od_Mishehu -- there was a classic article published in 1942 in the journal American Speech titled "Ora Jones Married Ora Jones", which was all about this subject. Of course most of the individuals mentioned would not be Wikipedia-notable. (P.S. In case it isn't obvious now, the two Ora Joneses were of opposite sexes…) AnonMoos (talk) 01:16, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Actress Glenn Close. Jmar67 (talk) 02:40, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Carol is used as a male given name in the US, but virtually everywhere else it's given only to females. I know there are some notable male Carols in the US, but have struggled to come up with an example. Akld guy (talk) 05:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There was Carol Reed, but he was British. See Carol (given name) for a few more examples (none from the US, although one from Canada). --Viennese Waltz 06:51, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * And Carol Vadnais, who was French Canadian, pronounced a lot like "Carl". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:20, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Carol = Carolus = Charles in many European languages, see Carol (given name). Carol II of Romania is another male example. A US female example is Carol Alt. Alansplodge (talk) 08:29, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There are more American males with that name (under a slightly different spelling) at Carroll. -- Jayron 32 10:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * My own first name, Karol, is a masculine name in Polish (see Karol Wojtyła for a more notable example), but I've got used to being addressed as "Mrs. Palion", "Madame Palion" or "Frau Palion" in emails written by foreigners who haven't met me in person. — Kpalion(talk) 12:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The novelist Lionel Shriver is perhaps another one, though the name was her own choice. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 07:25, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Another example of a female novelist adopting a male nom de plume is George Eliot, because male writers were much more likely to be published and bought. Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Kerry King of Slayer has a girls name, though I wouldn't say that to his face.
 * Kerry is almost as much a male name in these parts as female: Kerry Packer, Kerry Stokes, Kerry O'Keeffe come to mind. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:23, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a question of popularity - rather that female writers tend to be typecast as romantic novelists.  And let's not forget the custom in Catholic countries of giving boys the middle name Maria and girls the middle name José (or national equivalent). 2A00:23C0:7900:1C00:CC21:DFB4:38E9:3505 (talk) 10:40, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * In these parts too. Besides the aforementioned Kerry King, there's Kerry Wood, Kerry Collins and Kerry Livgren that come to my mind.  -- Jayron 32 11:01, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed, former Brighton & Hove Albion F.C. legend Kerry Mayo's wife was also called Kerry, resulting in the memorable football chant "There's only two Kerry Mayos". Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!)  21:28, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Men named Michele are of course not misgendered in Italy but this name easily confuses English speakers. See also Simone. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * 70.67.193.176 -- I don't think English speakers would necessarily be confused by Italian "Michele" and "Simone" if they heard them in their Italian pronunciations -- only when seeing them in their written forms. The Italian masculine name which is confusing for English speakers both when spoken and written is "Andrea"... AnonMoos (talk) 18:33, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Though not to any motorcycle racing fan, since both Andrea Iannone and Andrea Dovizioso are prominent in the top level of the sport. In BrE, the female name Andrea (which a cousin of mine bears) is stressed on the first syllable, whereas the Italian male Andrea is stressed on the second. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.2.132 (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Here in Croatia, Andrea is a 100% female name and pronounced exactly the same way as the male name in neighboring Italy. Meanwhile the male version, Andrija, is pronounced a lot like your British English Andrea. Go figure... 93.138.62.141 (talk) 20:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)


 * English feminine "Andrea" is usually pronounced differently than the Italian name (except maybe in Moon Unit Zappa's "Valley Girl"), but the Italian name would still be confusing to most English speakers... AnonMoos (talk) 11:51, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Laurence is a male name in English but feminine in French. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:23, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Female skater Laurence Owen, American, but her middle name suggests a possible French or French-Canadian ancestry. In American English, the male name is usually Lawrence. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:28, 12 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I do know of two famous females named Sean: Sean Young and Sean Yseult, though neither was born with that first name, so I don't know if it qualifies. I can't find any other female Seans at List of people named Sean, nor have I ever known of any.  -- Jayron 32 18:52, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * It occurs to me that the male name Yvan can be pronounced in the same way as the female name Yvonne. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:29, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * As with Yvan Cournoyer. That's the Frenchified version of Ivan, which can also rhyme with Yvonne (though English speakers are likely to say it as "EYE-vun". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC)


 * By coincidence, reading a recent Snopes article has just led me to Sir Beryl Wolfson (no article?). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:55, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything suggesting sufficient notability for an article, nor can I find anything to suggest he is entitled to the accolade "Sir". DuncanHill (talk) 16:33, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Apparently he's a Knight of the Légion d'Honneur, but that doesn't come with a "Sir" title. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:18, 14 May 2019 (UTC)