Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 November 22

= November 22 =

Double negatives in Hollywood movies
When they want to say that he did not eat anything, they will say "I didn't eat nothing"

They want to say that he did not murder anybody, he is innocent. But they will say "I not kill nobody" -- 08:29, 22 November 2019 42.110.244.50


 * What's your question. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:52, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * In formal / standard English, double negatives work "logically", so they either negate each other and become a positive, or allow subtle (or sometimes deliberately ambiguous) shades of meanings. In colloquial use, and many dialects (and several other languages) they act as an intensifier.  See https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/whats-double-negative for a more detailed description). Iapetus (talk) 09:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Per Iapetus, one common use of double negatives-as-positives in English are litotes, which is the use of double negatives for the purpose of irony, sarcasm, or emphasis. -- Jayron 32 13:20, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * This is one thing we Finns have to learn as well about English too. It's never told in our English textbooks. But apparently in French, double negatives are grammatical, for example in Edith Piaf's song Je ne regrette rien, literally meaning "I don't regret nothing". J I P  &#124; Talk 10:55, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * That's not a double negative. Negation in (formal) French uses two parts: . Bazza (talk) 12:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * A double negative in French would be something like "Je ne regrette pas rien", which would be an equivalent construction to "I don't know nothing" in English - i.e. a mistaken attempt at intensification by adding another negative layer. Xuxl (talk) 13:03, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It's done that way in Spanish as well. I recall something from Spanish 101, where that construction was used. One student said, "That's bad English!" The teacher said, "But it's good Spanish." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:10, 22 November 2019 (UTC)


 * 42.110.244.50 -- I don't think it has much to do with Hollywood movies as such, but rather to do with emphatic colloquial spoken English vs. standard English neutral expository prose. However, "I not kill nobody" isn't correct emphatic colloquial spoken English (it would be "I didn't kill nobody")...  AnonMoos (talk) 11:08, 22 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Even triple negatives can be a powerful rhetorical and literary device in vernacular English. When Playboy published Alex Haley's interview with Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay at the time) in 1964, the magazine received a letter from Henry Miller, who wrote:
 * "Just a word to say how much I liked the interview. Though it's in another category, it can take its place beside the one with Bertrand Russell — one of your best. . . . That last line, 'Ain't never been nothing like me,' is a gem."
 * ---Sluzzelin talk  16:30, 22 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Not just movies. The Rolling Stones, "I can't get no satisfaction." Or Pink Floyd, "We don't need no education." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:10, 22 November 2019 (UTC)


 * WHAAOI. --ColinFine (talk) 17:56, 22 November 2019 (UTC)


 * "Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinkin' badges!" Clarityfiend (talk) 09:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Madame Chairman
The article Robyn Denholm refers to Ms. Denholm as the "chairman" of Tesla Inc. in a couple of places. Is that ok in contemporary usage, in either US or AU English (she is from Australia)? As a US speaker it seems a bit strange to me, but I do remember the female officer "Mister Saavik" from Star Trek. Thanks. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 23:42, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Don't forget Benjamin Sisko calling Jadzia Dax "Old Man". J I P  &#124; Talk 00:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * In the UK, there's something of a dichotomy. For the traditionally minded, a chairman is still a chairman even if female, while for those leaning towards (or who have to pay heed to) political correctness, the term "chair" has been adopted in recent decades.
 * By way of a reference for the former, see A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles: Volume 7. Syntax, Part 7 by Otto Jespersen (p. 184), which says:
 * "In modern usage, some compounds may be applied to both sexes: she is a good horseman | Mrs. C. was a fashionable woman, the president or chairman of a score of clubs | That's all I have to say Mr. Chairman (or 'My Lord' or 'Mrs. Chairman' as the case may be) | Elizabeth was a great statesman | Mrs. N. was the spokesman of her sisters..."
 * Also  Chairman of West Berkshire Council - Protocol Guidance: "When greeting the Chairman on a formal occasion it is correct to address the Chairman as “Chairman” (even when a Chairman is female, they are still referred to as ‘The Chairman’)" (but I wouldn't mind betting a small sum that this is a Conservative controlled body).
 * Alansplodge (talk) 00:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * A bit more Googling finds the phrase "Madam Chairman" used in the U.S. House of Representatives (2010). Alansplodge (talk) 00:45, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Go by what her title at the company is. Some companies it would be "Chairwoman", but at Tesla, she is the "Chairman".  .  RudolfRed (talk) 01:14, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks everyone. RudolfRed's link refers to Robyn Denholm as "Chairman" once, and "Chair" several times.  Calling someone a chair seems even worse to me than misgendering them, so I'm satisfied with "Chairman".  173.228.123.207 (talk) 01:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * From Duck Soup:
 * Margaret Dumont: "As chairwoman of the reception committee, I welcome you with open arms!"
 * Groucho Marx: "As that so? How late do you stay open?"
 * ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:34, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * FWIW, in the Germanic languages (of which English is one), the antecedants and cognates of the word man originally just meant 'human being' or 'person', with male and female 'men' being distinguished by different words such as wer or were – 'male human' and wif or qwene – 'female human', or by affixes, e.g. wifmann ("wife man") and (I believe but can't find a reference for) leofman ("loaf man").
 * This non-gender specific meaning has lingered in compounds like "chairman" and in some legal and formal usage, but has almost died out in in popular speech and literature, giving rise to the false impression that such wording was always and only deliberately intended to exclude women from various roles.
 * Since such exclusion has, for whatever motivation, undoubtably happened, the ongoing process of dropping the original meaning and re-formulating various usages is regrettably necessary, however sad it might be from an etymological viewpoint. Language is and has always been subject to continual change, else most of us would still be speaking Proto Indo-European.{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.209.178 (talk) 12:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I now remember Spider Robinson remarking that one morning he had looked in the personbox to see if the personperson had brought him any person. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 22:20, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, the inclusion of homonyms (did you see what I did there?) in the proscriptions would make the situation even more fraught. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.209.178 (talk) 16:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * In theory, but there's more than etymology at play here given the super-majority of chairmen were male for most of the time that chairmen have existed, as is the case for pretty much all of the occupations and other usages of -man/-men. To say, after centures of all chairmen being male, that the word chairmen is ungendered is a form of special pleading. Come to think of it, are there any instances where the supposedly gender-neutral -man eventually morphed into a meaning that was tied to being female (apart from woman, of course)? Matt Deres (talk) 20:12, 26 November 2019 (UTC)