Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 October 14

= October 14 =

Pronouncing Greta Thunberg in Swedish
I came across two pronunciation, linked above, one sounds to me "toon berry" the other more like "toon berj". Where in Swedish would any pronunciation be more appropriate?

One https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTvacaJXK0

the other https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlDeKoE46o8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.4.142.66 (talk) 01:20, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The best indication would be how she pronounces her own name. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:42, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * She pronounces her own name like this (7:59 in the clip): Greta speaks to European Parliament, 16 April 2019 Mathglot (talk) 17:02, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, here's the one I was looking for: Greta on Democracy Now! (jump to 1:35). In this interview, Amy Goodman begins like this: "Why don't we start at the beginning? There's a great controversy, and it's how do you pronounce your name.  Can you say your full name for us?" Amy follows up Greta's response with further questions about the pronunciation.  To me, the final consonant sounds very similar to the final R in Russian теперь ("now"). Ping . Mathglot (talk) 18:22, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Our article Greta Thunberg has the IPA in a note [²ɡreːta ²tʉːnbærj] with an audio file in Swedish. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 03:09, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That's IPA for Swedish. IPA is not invariant; to be able to interpret it correctly, you have to understand some Swedish phonemics. Mathglot (talk) 17:09, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I remember when there was discussion in U.S. newspapers about how to pronounce Björn Borg's name, and a lot of hesitation about how to usefully indicate the pronunciation in print to readers (of course, neither journalists nor most newspaper readers know IPA). Fortunately or unfortunately, there was no Internet back then... AnonMoos (talk) 06:13, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * BTW, the question is not truly about the 'right' pronunciation, but it's about what I suspect is a regional variety pronouncing the -berg suffix. 31.4.141.11 (talk) 11:50, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * This is not correct. There is simply no audible g-sound in the suffix -rg in what most people consider standard Swedish. The G underwent lenition and became a y-sound [j]. Other examples include PewDiePie's real name and his home town of Gothenburg (Göteborg). --94.134.89.1 (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Simone Giertz has a similar pronunciation of the Swedish "G" in her name; there's something of a trope of English speakers having difficulty saying it correctly, as the sound has no close analogue in English, other than the english "y" sound, which isn't all that great. -- Jayron 32 11:51, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "af"
It looks like it's the "cool" or "hip" thing nowadays to use "af" as an intensifier as in "she woke af". How is it pronounced? As one syllable, like the word "as" or "at"? Or as "ay eff"? Or as "as fuck"? J I P &#124; Talk 10:56, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I would suspect [æz fʌk] / [əz fʌk], though I don't have specific evidence. There may not be any widely-utilized answer, since this seems to have originated purely in writing (like the Usenet term "ROT13" which someone once asked the pronunciation of). AnonMoos (talk) 12:53, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I've never met anyone that pronounces it as anything except "as fuck". I've not personally encountered anyone speaking it as a single syllable or as individual letters.  I'm sure at least one English speaking person has done so; likely more than one, but in general it parses as "as fuck", spoken in full.  -- Jayron 32 13:53, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually I have heard "ay eff" in Youtube videos where the Youtuber didn't want to be too rude to his audience but still wanted to make a point and "a lot" and "very" didn't quite convey the meaning. --Lgriot (talk) 14:16, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That's wrong. The Youtuber couldn't care less about being rude to whatever audience. People just don't want to get demonetized. --94.134.89.1 (talk) 19:25, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 94.134, you know every Youtuber, their relationship with their audience, and their reasoning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lgriot (talk • contribs) 12:36, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth (probably not much) one of the entries on Urban Dictionary says: 'Some pronounce it "A Eff" and others simply "af."' AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That could be. My sample size of my own experience is rather small, so I would trust literally any source over my own experience.  -- Jayron 32 11:49, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Demonetization is a good reason for not wanting to be too rude. —Tamfang (talk) 07:59, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I'd never think of pronouncing it as anything other than "as fuck", considering it's a written abbreviation used in online chat and not a word. But no doubt there are some young mostly-female teenagers doing their usual thing and driving language change. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 20:46, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I've heard more than one person pronounce it as the individual letters, for obvious reasons like wanting to not wanting to offend, showing familiarity (ironic or otherwise) with modern slang, and perhaps brevity or moderation of degree of emphasis. Temerarius (talk) 02:29, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * What really confuses me, though, is when I see someone using "asf" for the same purpose. I've asked one or two of them what that means and they said "as fuck". I could understand "as f" for that, but "asf" is just weird.--Khajidha (talk) 14:09, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Question about punctuation: hyphen, dash, en-dash, or em-dash
I am in the process of moving (re-naming) an article from Tate murders to Tate-LaBianca murders. My question: for a Wikipedia article title, what is the correct punctuation to place between the surnames "Tate" and "LaBianca"? Should it be a hyphen, a dash, an en-dash, or an em- dash? I read through MOS:DASH, but it only confused me. Also -- separate from the article title question -- what is the correct punctuation to include within the article itself, when combining the surnames "Tate" and "LaBianca"? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:27, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Consistency within the article is important. And for what it's worth, note similar construction for Taft–Hartley Act. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:43, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The relevant rules in MOS:DASH are:
 * Use an en dash for the names of two or more entities in an attributive compound.
 * And:
 * In article titles... to aid searching and linking, provide a redirect with hyphens replacing the en dash(es)...
 * So Tate–LaBianca murders is correct Wikipedia style (in the title and throughout the article), and Tate-LaBianca murders should redirect to it. (I see that right now those both exist as redirects, but they point to different articles.  This needs to be corrected.)
 * --76.69.116.4 (talk) 03:46, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * It appears there is an ongoing move discussion regarding this very issue. -- Jayron 32 11:48, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * So to check if I understood this correctly, "Tate–LaBianca murders" is correct because Tate and the LaBiancas were separate people. "Tate-LaBianca murders" would mean that the murder victim was named "Tate-LaBianca". J I P  &#124; Talk 13:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, a hyphen is used when it is a compound name referring to a single thing (as in the city of Winston-Salem, North Carolina or in the person of Maurice Jones-Drew). An endash is used to connect two separate entities or ideas, as in China–United States relations or the Torrijos–Carter Treaties.  -- Jayron 32 13:52, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I've never seen that reasoning for why Wikipedia shamelessly fucks this up, and it makes sense I guess (and I honestly kinda like it as a concept) but it's wrong. With an em dash the text "Tate--LaBianca murders" (2 en-dash for 1 em-dash here) out of context can only be a quote from a person addressing Tate, telling them that LaBianca is a murderer. And I'm a huge proponent of language/orthography innovation, but Wikipedia should follow (and quickly!) rather than lead. Temerarius (talk) 02:39, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you're bringing emdashes into the discussion. Neither I, nor the Wikipedia guidance page I linked to, mentions them.  Emdashes primary usage is as a form of aside or appositive, similar to how commas or parentheses are used, to place a different emphasis on the aside than commas or parentheses would.  Wikipedia does NOT recommend emdashes for the usage discussed above, so I am not sure what your objection is.  Wikipedia usage reflects what nearly all style guides also reflects regarding the distinction between the three lengths of dash.  -- Jayron 32 12:32, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * So to sum it up:
 * With a hyphen: murder of someone called "Tate-LaBianca"
 * With an endash: murder of Tate and the LaBiancas
 * With an emdash: Tate calling LaBianca a murderer
 * Is this correct? J I P  &#124; Talk 12:52, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * No on the emdash. It has no use in that isolated construction.  Those three specific words would perhaps have an emdash in that place, but ONLY as part of a completely different construction, for example as an aside where you make a clarifying statement, but it would be something like "'In the novel, Bill was talking to Tate—LaBianca murders Tate later that day—unaware of future events.'"  In this case (and in most cases) emdashes act in a similar manner as commas or parentheses, to make an aside or a clarifying comment or something like that.  You could replace emdashes with commas or parentheses and get a similar sense.  The isolated phrase Tate LaBianca murders would never have an emdash, it would only be the first two usages. -- Jayron 32 13:22, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * To add to the "nit picking" of these punctuation symbols ... in your example above (about the novel in which the LaBianca guy murders the Tate guy) ... there should be no blank white space on either side of the em-dashes ... correct?   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:23, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, yes. So corrected.  -- Jayron 32 20:11, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * There is no hard and fast rule that says you should not put spaces between em dashes and text. It's a matter of preference. --Viennese Waltz 06:46, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * There is no hard and fast rule for anything except in context, and in the context of writing on Wikipedia, we follow Wikipedia's own rules. The MOS says, at WP:MOSDASH, and I quote "An em dash is always unspaced (without a space on either side)".  In other environments, rules may be different.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 12:22, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Related question: How on earth do you type an en-dash or an em-dash, using a regular computer keyboard? I always resort to "copying-and-pasting" (when I know there is a "good source" to copy from) ... which tends to be time-consuming. I sometimes use the templates – and — ... but, there are times when you cannot use a template. (For example, in attempting to create a redirect link ... where one might try to type #REDIRECTTate–LaBianca murders .) So, is there an easy way to "type" an en-dash or an em-dash, with one stroke on a normal keyboard? Or, what is the easiest way? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:13, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Look below the edit window, you should see "Insert:" followed by a line of symbols. The first two are the en and em dashes. Just click on the buttons. --Khajidha (talk) 17:24, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I use Khajidha's method. -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 18:16, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If you're on a Windows PC, the easiest way (for me at least) to type any special character is to use alt codes. That is to say, hold down the Alt key and type a four-digit code. An en dash is Alt+0150, for example. There's a full list here. --Viennese Waltz 18:12, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:23, 18 October 2019 (UTC)