Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 August 3

= August 3 =

Doesn't take an Einstein to answer this question
Is there a term for people's names which become synonymous with something, like "genius" or "traitor" (take your pick: Quisling or Benedict Arnold)? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:51, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, other examples. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:54, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Machiavelli maybe? Clarityfiend (talk) 07:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , are you referring to a metonym? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  06:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * After skimming through that article, I see that the definition restricts metonyms to "things or concepts", which seems to exclude people's names. Personal names are not mentioned in the article or in List of metonyms. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:04, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A metonym is a noun associated with another and used as a symbol, like "the throne" meaning the monarch. An exemplar is a very other thing. —Tamfang (talk) 02:20, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Archetypal name: Archetypal names are proper names of real, mythological, or fictional characters that have become designations for archetypes of certain personal traits. Iapetus (talk) 08:19, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Ding, ding, ding. We appear to have a winner (although that definition needed a visit from the grammar police: "real ... characters"?). Clarityfiend (talk) 08:52, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Virginia Clinton was a real character. --Lambiam 15:02, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you come up with more examples, please add them to Archetypal name. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Lothario and Don Juan. 41.165.67.114 (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Judas (as in Judas Iscariot). 41.165.67.114 (talk) 12:26, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * In the early 1960s, if I wanted by mother to buy something for me (toys usually), and she wouldn't, and I would remark it only costs x pounds, she would reply "Hark at Mr Rockerfeller". I think it was quite a common phrase then. TrogWoolley (talk) 12:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There are many instances, too many to add all, in particular if you include fictional or mythological characters. Just with an "A": Abraham Lincoln; Acteon; Ali Baba; Apollo; Archie Bunker; Arnold Schwarzenegger; Arthur Daley. --Lambiam 14:58, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What are Lincoln, Acteon, Ali Baba, etc. synonymous with? "You're a real Abe Lincoln" means what? Clarityfiend (talk) 22:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It could mean honesty. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:24, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Could, but it's not a clear association (and I doubt if anybody's ever used it that way), which is the point. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:45, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm sure your request for more examples for the article was not for stuff that any of us just makes up to help fill in our days, but stuff that is appropriately sourced. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Abraham Lincoln: an emancipator or analogous reformer. Acteon: (archaic) a cuckold. Ali Baba: (slang) an extremely lucky person, especially one who acquires a large fortune by luck or by chance. Etcetera. --Lambiam 10:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC).
 * Just because X may occasionally be used to mean Y doesn't make it synonymous. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * We also have List of eponyms (A–K) and List of eponyms (L–Z), and Category:Lists of eponyms. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * A possible source: . I can only view the A's, but that at least adds Adonis to the list. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Scarabotto
What is the origin of the Italian surname Scarabotto? Geschichte (talk) 11:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Italian words starting with sca- often have French cognates starting with esca-, such as scaramuccia and escarmouche. Indeed, in an Italian–French dictionary we see scarabotto translated as escarbot. So presumably the name has the same origin as French escarbot, meaning "scarab". --Lambiam 10:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The -otto prefix is a variation of -etto, which is a hypocoristic or diminutive. The name could be read as "little scarab" or "little beetle" or something like that.  -- Jayron 32 15:48, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Mmm, kinda sorta. The story with -otto is a little complicated.  A ragazzino is a little boy, but a ragazzotto is probably in his twenties or early thirties.  | Treccani says Il suffisso -otto ha un valore attenuativo, ma anche spregiativo: stupidotto, sempliciotto, borghesotto, provincialotto, so it can be a little bit of a disparaging judgment, whereas diminutives usually make something better.  I have seen it alleged that risotto comes from risum optimum, "excellent rice", but I don't have a link for that to hand, so possibly it can also go in the other direction.  (By the way, what is the name in English for a suffix that makes something worse, as in poetaster?) --Trovatore (talk) 16:43, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Pejorative suffix. Deor (talk) 17:12, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you all for answering! Geschichte (talk) 17:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to throw in another bit of info, a search for "scarabotto" at garzantilinguistica.it comes up instead with scarabocchio, which is a messy spillage of ink when writing (presumably with one of those old pens you dip in ink, I imagine, or at least a fountain pen).
 * Why did that come up, you ask? Good question.  Looking down in the etymology section, it says that it might come from French escarbot, by way of archaic Italian scarabotto, meaning scarafaggio.  Which in turn means "cockroach".
 * So maybe "roach" rather than "scarab" exactly. --Trovatore (talk) 00:45, 6 August 2020 (UTC)


 * In Norway there is a certain tradition for people of small stature to assume "bad" surnames in a vein of gallows humor. For instance the surname Jammerdal, which translates to "Vale of Tears". Is this a case of the same? Why would anyone want to bear the name cockroach? Or were roaches regarded positively, like the scarabs were? Geschichte (talk) 06:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Speaking of small stature, Wiktionary gives this figurative sense for scarafaggio: "A short person that has black hair or usually wears black clothes". This word also has the same source as scarab and originally, like Latin scarabaeus, could refer to any larger true beetle (although preferentially used for beetles in the genus Scarabaeus) before it specialized to roaches. We should not forget that the people using these terms were not entomologists; some species in the family Scarabaeidae look much like cockroaches and vice versa. --Lambiam 08:09, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I'm not sure you always got to pick.  Scarabs' habits would not make them welcome in my kitchen, even if the Ancient Egyptians thought they were sacred.  "Dolores" means "pains".  I once saw a news story that talked about a (presumably) Italian-American by the name of Pompino (the story had nothing to do with his surname), and I suspect he was pretty glad not to live in Italy.
 * I should say that I haven't found any other source that connects French escarbot with cockroach, though I have found it used to mean beetles other than scarabs (for example Hister. --Trovatore (talk) 07:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Spanish given name Dolores is short for La Virgen María de los Dolores, one of the aspects under which the Virgin Mary is venerated by catholics (in English as Our Lady of Sorrows). Another given name that has (at least to me) strong unpleasant connotations is Perdita, meaning, archaically, "a woman who has fallen into prostitution" in English, from the sense "a ruined or wasted female" in Latin. There are people whose surname is Prick: Gerd Prick, Christof Prick. The latter uses the name Christof Perick in English-speaking countries. --Lambiam 08:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC)