Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 August 5

= August 5 =

Sumerian
Is Sumerian an Indo-European language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.135.34 (talk) 06:31, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You've extensively edited Sumerian Language so I assume you've seen Sumerian Language. In short, no, it's a language isolate.  Rojomoke (talk) 06:45, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

article doesn't explain why Sumerian was considered Indo-European. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.135.34 (talk) 06:46, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


 * That statement in the article is cited to Leslie Dewart, Evolution and Consciousness: The Role of Speech in the Origin and Development of Human Nature (1989), which in turn cites C. Autran, Sumérien et Indo-Européen: l'aspect morphologique de la question (Paris, 1925). Presumably the latter book implies contemporaneous wide acceptance of the IE hypothesis. Whether it also explains the reasoning behind this acceptance or refers to yet other studies, as on the etymologies of the Sumerian lexicon, I don't know. Dewart was not a linguist but a philosopher with an interest in language. --Lambiam 09:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Etymology of Arabic 'Sartan'
What is the etymology of the Arabic word for cancer, 'Sartan', and where on the Internet can I find etymologies of other Arabic words? Gil_mo (talk) 06:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Arabic term, سَرَطَان, is usually transliterated 'saraṭān'. It is a cognate of Hebrew סַרְטָן (sartán) and Classical Syriac ܣܪܛܢܐ (sarṭānā), in which languages the primary meaning – as for Latin cancer – is "crab". The semitic root s-r-ṭ is related to scratching according to Wiktionary, but the Encyclopaedia of Islam mentions connotations of "eating greedily" and "running rapidly". The Semitic Roots Repository produces "write/straight". This sense may be found in Arabic سِرَاط (sirāṭ) meaning "road", but Wiktionary derives this via Classical Syriac from Latin strata. It is all a bit muddled. --Lambiam 09:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Lambian, enlightening! are there any other sources of information to resolve the "muddled" parts? The etymology in the Islam reference ("straight") does not coincide with the Wiktionary's "enclosure"... Gil_mo (talk) 10:40, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There is also Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon. The External links section in the article gives links to online editions. But if you cannot read and write Arabic, it is difficult to search this. A bit easier to use, if you have an idea of the root, is the online Project Root List. A search for "Sad-Ra-Tay" (ص ر ط) gives the meaning "a path which is even, wide enough and can be trodden without difficulty. A road/way/path, long sword. sirat n.m.", so this agrees with the Semitic Roots Repository. The site also provides links (via ejtaal.net) to pages with the relevant entry in Lane and in Wehr, another dictionary. --Lambiam 22:33, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks again!Gil_mo (talk) 07:15, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Say boo to a goose
What is the origin of the phrase "he/she wouldn't say boo to a goose"? And is it just a British English expression? On behalf of all Anatidae across the English-speaking world, I think we should be told. 86.190.108.60 (talk) 10:34, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * . -- Jayron 32 12:29, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This one is sourced: —Walter W. Skeat, "Cry Bo to a Goose," Notes and Queries, 4th series, vi, Sept. 10, 1870
 * I don't recall ever coming across this expression in the US. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 14:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Never heard "Bo!" used in the UK (unless that was meant to rhyme with "to" in 1870?) Martinevans123 (talk) 14:40, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The spelling might be archaic, possibly "bo" would have been pronounced "boo" (?). 107.15.157.44 (talk) 14:48, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The OED says of bo: "Obsolete. Representing an inarticulate spoken sound or exclamation, esp. one made abruptly in order to surprise or frighten (cf. boo int. 1)" "Forms:  15–16 boe, 15–18 bo, 16–18 boh, 16 bough" and "N.E.D. (1887) gives the pronunciation as (bōu) /bəʊ/." I'm familiar with bo in this sense in older texts. OED has an earliest date of 1588 for "say bo to a goose" and 1639 for "boo to a goose", latest citations 1866 for "bo to a gosling" and 2005 for "boo to a goose". DuncanHill (talk) 15:41, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * :Not to be confused with "D'oh!". 107.15.157.44 (talk) 01:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Anyway, The Oxford Dictionary of Idioms has their earliest quote from P G Woodhouse, Uncle Dynamite, 1948, "She looks on you as a ... poor, spineless sheep who can't say boo to a goose". Alansplodge (talk) 17:16, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't a sheep say baa to a goose? --Lambiam 21:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not before 1870. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What a singularly disquieting image that quote creates. And reminds me of poor old Geoffrey "dead sheep" Howe : Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


 * But a play by Thomas Middleton (1580-1627) called A Chaste Maid in Cheapside has "Porter: All my lifetime sir, I could ever say boo to a goose".
 * This led me too the English Stack Exchange which has several other examples from the early 17th century by Thomas Dekker (writer), Barnabe Rich, John Taylor (poet), Thomas White (died 1670) and others. Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Goodness me. This gaggle of geese has been enjoying a collective boo-free existence for many centuries, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A Dictionary of Sexual Language and Imagery in Shakespearean and Stuart Literature links Middleton's quote to the slang usage of goose meaning a prostitute, as in the Bishop of Winchester's geese. Alansplodge (talk) 19:18, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My word. I'd never say boo to those geese. Even if I were very cross. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * GoogleBooks shows us there are pros and cons. Even a whole work! Martinevans123 (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC) ... apparently those Canadian ones can be a bit tricky, even if you are very small.