Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 February 9

= February 9 =

Persian
Can anyone translate, the two Persian lines - at the bottom of the attached pic ? -- סמי20 10:54, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Omidinist might. Not that active lately, so I'm pinging. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:54, 9 February 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm here. The two lines seem to be in Turkish, but I can tell, from Arabic words, that it is a reference to a publication permit by the Ministry of Public Education.Omidinist (talk) 04:55, 10 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Then it would be Ottoman Turkish. Can you give a transliteration to the Latin alphabet? --Lambiam 09:55, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Ma'aref umumiya nizarat jalilasik 16 kanun sani 309 tarikhlu ve 781 numroli rokhsatnamasila nashr ultmashder. Omidinist (talk) 10:56, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Ma'aref is Modern Turkish maarif ("education; Ministry of Education"), umumiya might be Modern Turkish umumiyet ("publicity, generality"), nizarat is nezaret ("supervision, administration"), kanun means "law" (perhaps here kanun-u with a Persian izafet), sânî, obsolete in Modern Turkish, means "later" or "second", tarikhlu = tarihli ("dated"), ve means "and", numroli is probably numaralı ("numbered"), rokhsatnamasila is ruhsatnamesiyle ("with permit, with license"), and nashr is naşir ("publisher"). The rest (jalilasik, ultmashder) I can’t place; could the final word be a verb form ending in -mıştır or -muştur ("has VERB-ed")? Together: Maarif umumiyet nezaret [?jalilasik] Kanun-u Sânî 309 tarihli ve 781 numaralı ruhsatnamesiyle naşir [?ultmashder]. So it indeed appears to mean that the the Ministry of Public Education, according to some law, has given a license (nr. 781) to the publisher. --Lambiam 15:04, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
 * These documents usually make reference to "the law dated ...".  The old Turkish names for December and January are Kanun I and Kanun II.   sânî is "second" and tarikhlu is "dated", so 16 kanun sani 309 might mean "16 January of year 309".   The year on the document (1890) just happens to be 309 years (inclusive) after the first adoption of the Gregorian calendar in 1582.   jalali is a Persian word referring to solar years.   The Islamic year (1)309, which is lunar, began in 1891.   Just to put this in perspective, the current Jalali year (official in Afghanistan and Persia) is 1398, while the Islamic year is 1441 (since the Hijra in AD 622 the 11-day difference has mounted up to about 15,300 days, or about 42 years). 2A00:23C5:CDA5:6700:9879:AFB5:454C:E64E (talk) 15:53, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * 16 Kanun II in the Ottoman Empire of 1890 was a Julian date in the Rumi calendar.  This calendar identified Julian dates with Hijri year numbers.   As the Hijri year is shorter than the Julian, every 33 years or so the year number would jump (the so-called "escape year").   In 1840 the "escape years" were abolished and the Rumi year thereafter was a constant 584 years behind the Julian.   It may be, however, that the ordinary people were unaware of or indifferent to this change made 50 years before and continued to identify Rumi years by current Hijri year numbers.   The  divergence would have been barely noticeable a mere 50 years after the change. 2A00:23C1:E104:5900:F029:2265:D7E0:EE0B (talk) 11:25, 16 February 2020 (UTC)