Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 July 28

= July 28 =

Entrenched clause in Spanish?
Is there a specific equivalent term in Spanish-speaking countries for entrenched clause or at least how it would be referred to in Spain? The Constitution of Spain has the Title X on constitutional amendment. StellarHalo (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * In portuguese (sister language to Spanish) we would say something like "cláusula pétrea da Constituição" ("stone clause of the Constitution"). Mdob (talk) 17:07, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Our article es:Reforma de la Constitución española says Por otra parte las cláusulas de inmodificabilidad suelen ser ineficaces (on the other hand, the clauses of unmodifiability are usually ineffective). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.74.53.154 (talk) 11:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Hebrew: the "ch" in the Biblical word Pacheggen (in the Book of Esther):
Is it pronounced like the "ch" in the English word "loch", or like the "ch" in the English word "check"? Eliko (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * When you say "ch" in the English word "loch", do you mean the ck sound that the English generally use when they mispronounce the Scottish word, or do you mean the actual Scottish pronunciation (what I'm not sure how to represent)? Iapetus (talk) 09:07, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A word of advice - don't ever say that "loch" is an English word in Scotland unless you enjoy hospital food. Alansplodge (talk) 19:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Neither Google nor I can find "Pacheggen" in the Book of Esther. Which chapter? Alansplodge (talk) 19:21, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Do you by any chance know where that word occurs in Esther? According to conventional transliteration, that word does not seem to exist, but it may be that the word you're looking for is פַּתְשֶׁגֶן (patshegen), a word that occurs in no other book of the Bible, but which is thought to be a variant/corruption of פַּרשֶׁגֶן (parshegen) that occurs in the book of Ezra. I suppose 'patshegen' could be transliterated as 'pacheggen' by someone who heard it, as the consonant cluster 'tsh' can sound similar to the 'ch' in check. You can hear the word pronounced in this mp3 at around 1:32. - Lindert (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's what I meant. So it's not the "ch" of "loch". Thank you. Anyway, it seems that Hebrew has the sound of "ch" in "check" (or something similar), doesn't it? Eliko (talk) 19:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the 't' sound and the 'sh' sound must belong to separate syllables, so the combination can't occur at the beginning (or end) of a word (at least in classical/biblical Hebrew). - Lindert (talk) 19:50, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Lindert -- Biblical Hebrew as pronounced in the late centuries B.C. and early centuries A.D. had both a voiceless velar fricative and a voiceless pharyngeal fricative. It didn't have any alveopalatal affricate unit sound (though sometimes "t" could occur before "sh", as has been mentioned). AnonMoos (talk) 00:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Wiktionary considers פַּתְשֶׁגֶן‎ to be Biblical Hebrew and פַּרְשֶׁגֶן‎ Aramaic; both are said to be borrowings from the same Middle Persian word. Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon calls the latter an "Aramaic loan-word [from Persian] in Biblical Hebrew". (The Book of Ezra contains passages in Aramaic, but the word occurs in Ezra 4:23 in a sentence in Hebrew immediately following the inclusion of a letter in Aramaic.) The word פַּתְשֶׁגֶן‎ can be found in Esther 3:14, 4:8, and 8:13. --Lambiam 05:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)