Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 June 6

= June 6 =

difference between empathy and sympathy
I was asked by a non-native english speaker what is the difference 'in english' between empathy and sympathy. As a native english speaker (on my good days) I still struggled with the question. Interested to know how wikipedians can help shape a useful distinction or understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A447:A6CD:1:2DCD:4397:40B1:7BE2 (talk) 13:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)


 * This Grammarly page does a good job of explaining the difference I think. Mikenorton (talk) 13:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Empathy is when one feels what the other person is feeling (or at least what you think they are experiencing). Sympathy is weaker. For example, if they are in a deep depression, an empathizer feels down in the dumps too. A sympathizer feels only some degree of sorrow, not depression. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:28, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * that is the opposite of what Grammarly says above and what Merriam-Webster says here. OTOH languagehat is a language blog with well-informed comment; the blogger himself has the same take as Clarityfiend and is surprised that others have the opposite view. "Empathy" was coined by psychologists as a technical term. Many technical terms are taken up by popularisers and have their meaning twisted in unpredictable ways. jnestorius(talk) 18:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The Gammarly piece largely matches my understanding. In counselling and emergency-response settings, the difference is perhaps stressed even more. While the subject of the verb may feel that the two are fairly similar, there is a stark difference to the object. People typically don't like getting your sympathy; it has connotations of "feeling sorry" for them, or pitying them, often in an unhelpful way. Receiving your empathy is different; it's acknowledging the stresses the person is facing. Matt Deres (talk) 19:07, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * When people say "I'm sorry for your loss", often to a total stranger, do they actually feel sorrow, and if not, what are they demonstrating apart from obeisance to what has become a cultural norm? Is this either of sympathy or empathy? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Finely-grained
The article sherbet (powder) now begins with:

Sherbet is a finely-grained powder sweet, usually eaten by dipping a lollipop or liquorice, or licking it on a finger.

How can it be "finely-grained"? Can you grain something finely? Or shouldn't it be "fine-grained"? J I P &#124; Talk 22:03, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think "grained" is a verb. Maybe "ground" would work better? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:26, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a case of a difference in meaning. Is sherbet a powder to begin with, or is it ground from a more solid substance? J I P  &#124; Talk 22:31, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The main ingredient is icing sugar, which Wikipedia calls Powdered sugar; "a finely ground sugar produced by milling granulated sugar into a powdered state".  Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * (ec) -ly can be used to form adjectives, and as the OED says "When -ly is appended to an adjective, the resulting derivative adjective often connotes a quality related to or resembling that expressed by its primary". I would probably write "fine-grained" myself, but have no objection to "finely-grained" in the example given. I find it hard to imagine a situation in which I would describe sherbert as "finely-ground". DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Grained" here means "Having grains, seeds, or particles". DuncanHill (talk) 22:39, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree that it could be either "fine-grained" (compound adjective) or "finely grained" (adverb-adjective, not hyphenated). Jmar67 (talk) 23:53, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A Google search finds the expression in some much odder usages: "Finely-grained datasets", "finely-grained rebranding" and Finely Grained Class Labeling for example. Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "finely-grained" is NOT adverb-adjective, "finely" here is an adjective. DuncanHill (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? Can you say, "The grain of this powder is very finely"? Compare also "densely starred", "sharply pointed", "sparsely sequined". --Lambiam 22:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the word granular have a place here. The powder is finely-granular. Richard Avery (talk) 16:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it's grammatically valid or just my personal instinct, but to this BrE speaker, "fine-grained" suggests a substance that just happens to be that way (and has grains that are fine), whereas "finely grained" suggests that it has been made so by deliberate action (of graining). I believe there also used to be a 'rule' that adverbs (ending in "-ly") should not to be linked to the following word (usually a verb) by a hyphen, although of course adjectives can be so linked. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.125.72.102 (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, except there is no such verb as "to grain". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course there is. It means "give a rough surface or texture to" or "form into grains", in both British and US Englishes. Bazza (talk) 08:42, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Those actually mirror each other. But how do those usages apply in this particular case? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I know one is the same as the other (not a mirror); I included both as evidence that there is no WP:ENGVAR at play here. "form into grains" would seem to be the meaning in use here, thus answering one of 's original questions "Can you grain something finely?" Bazza (talk) 10:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)