Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 May 12

= May 12 =

D.S. al Fine
Spurred by a question asked by on the Science desk, of all things, I started thinking about the musical notation D.S. al Fine (dal segno al fine), which means "from the sign to the end".

Then thing is, in Italian, there are (perhaps more than but at least) two meanings of fine as a noun. Both can be translated as "end". But la fine, feminine, means "end" in the sense of "terminus", whereas il fine, masculine, means "end" in the sense of "purpose".

So how is it that the musical notation is using the masculine form of the noun here? Wouldn't the feminine one make more sense? Maybe it's an archaism? --Trovatore (talk) 01:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)


 * For "fine" as '"end in the sense of "terminus"', Treccani does write: "s. f. (raro o ant. come s. m.)" (feminine noun (rare or antiquated as masculine noun)). . ---Sluzzelin talk  02:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, nice find. Further down in the same page we find al fine, didascalia musicale che prescrive la ripetizione della prima parte di un pezzo sino al punto in cui compare la parola fine, partendo o dall’inizio (da capo) o da un segno particolare (dal segno), and even further down, a masculine literary sense meaning limite, parte terminale.  So this looks like it, an extension of an older usage preserved in a fixed form.  I still can't really explain dal segno al coda, though, unless it's Jack's suggestion below. --Trovatore (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting it should be "alla fine"?
 * You might be aware that not all "Italian" musical directions are in fact Italian. Maybe the best known is glissando, which is an italianised adverbial form of a French noun. I'm told it ought to be "strisciando" in strict Italian.
 * Beethoven used the term "alla ingharese" in his Rage Over a Lost Penny:
 * The indication alla ingharese is of interest, as no such word as "ingharese" exists in standard Italian. To people of Beethoven's day, "Gypsy music" and "Hungarian music" were synonymous terms. Beethoven seems to have conflated alla zingarese (in the Gypsy style) and all'ongarese (in the Hungarian style) to come up with a unique term alla ingharese. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks; that might be part of it, I guess. Sluzzelin's response above seems to explain dal segno al fine, but not dal segno al coda, which has the same problem. --Trovatore (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In this discussion, some participants sense that "al coda" might include an understood omission or implication of "segno della" / "simbolo della" >> "da capo al (simbolo della) coda". There is further speculation there too. ---Sluzzelin talk  05:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Thanks, Sluzzelin.  No one seems to have a definitive answer but they have some good thoughts. --Trovatore (talk) 05:52, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There are occasional occurrences of al coda in Italian texts in a non-musical context, even as the same works also use alla coda, sometimes only a few lines earlier or later. I do not know if this is a purely typographical error or a spelling error that represents an elision that is common in actual pronunciation, also seen rendered as all coda in a representation of spoken text. --Lambiam 09:32, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

stickers
Could someone please translate this text (the grey and the black), it's from some stickers to put up in the bathroom, and confirm the language - thank you.

Ecolchester (talk) 16:12, 12 May 2020 (UTC)


 * To me it looks like repetitions of the same character in different calligraphy styles. Probably wikt:緣, which seems to mean "fate" in Japanese and Korean, but I might be wrong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:40, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Fut.Perf is right. 緣 is a Chinese character (and by extension Japanese Kanji and Korean Hanja) pronounced yuán in Mandarin. In ancient times, it meant the hem of one's clothes, but nowadays depending on the context can mean "border," "a reason/because," or as Fut.Perf. mentioned, "fate" (which is usually in the sense of the fate or luck that brings people together in relationship, distinct from "destiny").  bibliomaniac 1  5  18:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Guts for garters
What is the origin of this phrase e.g. "If he carries on with his thieving, I'll have his ruddy guts for garters!" Is it used only in the UK? 86.190.109.247 (talk) 17:56, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Garters are strips of fabric used to hold up various parts of one's clothes that would otherwise fall down (usually stockings). Guts are intestines.  He's saying that he'll eviscerate the interlocutor, and use his intestines as one would use garters.  It's intended as a violent threat.  -- Jayron 32 18:06, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am fully aware of the meaning, thanks. But when and where did it originate? Presumably when garters were common attire. Is this something only a man would say? 86.190.109.247 (talk) 18:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, Eric Partridge's Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English (5th ed., 1961) calls it a "race-course (and other low)" catchphrase "from before 1932". Deor (talk) 18:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The oldest example I found is from 1812 in The Spirit of Irish Wit. Cheers ⌘  hugarheimur 22:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * For the exact wording "guts for garters", the earliest cite in the OED Online is from 1933; but they show other versions of the expression used in about 1592 by Robert Greene (dramatist), in 1601 by Ben Jonson, and in 1714 by John Walker (biographer). Greene says "Ile make garters of thy guttes, Thou villaine", Jonson says "Sir, I will garter my hose with your guttes", and Walker says "He hoped to have the Parson's Guts to Garter his Hose with". --76.71.5.208 (talk) 02:07, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It's fairly commonly heard down here in Australia, probably from more senior members of the community. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)


 * "Elastic fibers are found in the skin, lungs, arteries, veins, connective tissue proper, elastic cartilage, periodontal ligament, fetal tissue and other structures" so perhaps guts literally could be used as garters. Bus stop (talk) 02:18, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * See: catgut —107.15.157.44 (talk) 05:20, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Stringed instruments, sutures and tennis racquets are mentioned there, but garters (or any other clothing) are not? 86.141.69.91 (talk) 06:44, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Researching this, I found an undocumented claim on a forum that "garters were made from the end trails from an animal". :) --Lambiam 08:06, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Anything you ever wanted to know about medieval garters is here from Fordham University, which describes garters being made of leather treated by tawing which made them stretchy, woolen garters made of animal fur "from goats, rabbit, lamb, foxes and otters" and later silk. Not guts however, I think we are trying to be over-literal in this instance. Alansplodge (talk) 12:12, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


 * There are a number of colourful variants of this phrase, "bollocks for earrings" being the most common. Alansplodge (talk) 11:53, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It takes guts to post something like that, Alan. I do hope you didn't have to work your guts out to find it. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * :-) Alansplodge (talk) 10:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Attractive keyring also now available. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:26, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd probably get the sack for wearing those. Boom, boom! Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

The worldwidewords.org entry for this phrase is here. They don't go into great detail about this one, but it's something. http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-hav1.htm Temerarius (talk) 00:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That article says; "The fact that modern British men rarely wear garters, and that when they do they tend to call them sock suspenders..." Hmmm... only if they watch a lot of American films methinks; see Football Sock Garters, Rucanor Sock Stopper II Football Sock Garter, Garters for Shooting Socks, Tayside Socks and Garters and for the younger gentleman, Birkdale School Boys' Sock Garters. Alansplodge (talk) 10:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Suspenders, schmuspenders. I'll have you know that I well remember having to wear garters as a schoolboy. This was especially necessary when wearing long socks with unfashionable school shorts. This was back in the day when British school children had guts of course. Unlike these days!! Bah humbug. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:37, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * All is not lost: Teenage boys wear skirts to school to protest against 'no shorts' policy''. Alansplodge (talk) 10:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Michael Wood, who works as a porter at Watford general hospital, claimed he was facing disciplinary action from his employers Medirest for rolling his trousers up to try to cool down.".... and notice we still have no clear advice on rolled-up trousers from Matt Hancock! Martinevans123 (talk) 10:48, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps he's a Freemason... Alansplodge (talk) 16:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Or a real dandified young-fogey fop. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:56, 14 May 2020 (UTC)