Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 May 16

= May 16 =

a æ and e
æ it's very difficult to understand and pronounce for non native english speakers. I don't know but i suspect that does not even exists in most of the latin languages. Flash and flesh differs in the vowel only. So this is the question: does exist three similar words like Flash and Flesh that contain respectively the a the æ and the e? It's not mere curiosity. Here c:Category:%C3%86 there is no audio like this one on youtube; instead should be very useful for spreading english language knowledge. Maybe someone brilliant speaking could upload a couple of audio examples with two or three words. We could use this kind of audio files in æ pages--Pierpao (talk) 10:49, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure which version of English you are trying to relate to. In most that I watch, usage of "æ" has pretty much disappeared. My native version of English is Australian English. When I was at school 60 years ago, the "æ" spelling existed in words like encyclopaedia, paediatrics and paedophile. For all of those, the letter "e" seems to have now replaced "æ". In American English, I didn't think they used "æ" at all. My impression is that UK English is evolving in the same way as Australian English. In summary, I'm saying that there is no special pronunciation of "æ". Just say it as if it's an "e". HiLo48 (talk) 11:17, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Didn't Caesar used to be spelled Cæsar? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:54, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, Caeser, encyclopaedia, paediatrics and paedophile all have the same vowel sound in British and Australian English (rhymes with "speed"). Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * When I wrote my comment above, I was thinking just what you wrote, but I now realise that the pronunciation of "paedophile" in Australian English has drifted somewhat so that the first syllable now tends to rhyme with "bed", as it does with slangish abbreviation "pedo". But it's still only ageing pedants like me that even put "ae" in the word when we write it. Never "æ".HiLo48 (talk) 12:16, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In American English, the "ped" of "pedophile" rhymes with "bed". Yet the "ped" of "pediatrics" rhymes with "bead". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * We have an article, List of words that may be spelled with a ligature which says: "Until the early twentieth century, the œ and æ ligatures had been commonly used to indicate an etymological connection with Latin or Greek. Since then they have fallen out of fashion almost completely and are now only used occasionally. They are more commonly used for the names of historical people, to evoke archaism, or in literal quotations of historical sources".
 * More opinions at English Language & Usage Stack Exchange - When do I use æ?: "I don’t think you will need to use it in current common language". Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I get the impression that Pierpao is asking about the phoneme /æ/, whereas those responding so far are writing about the grapheme "æ". When the latter is written in English (which is becoming very uncommon), I don't think it's ever pronounced as the former. So, "flash" and "flesh": yes, the contrast is the vowel, /flæʃ/ versus /flɛʃ/. There are plenty other such pairs, e.g. "crass" versus "cress", /kɹæs/ versus /kɹɛs/. The vowel /æ/ is the near-open front unrounded vowel; as the latter article shows, it's used in a lot of languages. (Don't be surprised that c:Category:%C3%86 has nothing about the vowel /æ/; it's about the digraph.) -- Hoary (talk) 12:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes of course, Hoary is right; please accept my best apologies. I forgot to use the //.--Pierpao (talk) 12:59, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There is "flush", so added to "flash" and "flesh" that gives you your list of three. "Flush" isn't quite /a/, but AFAIK English doesn't have that sound and the sound in "flush" is the best that can be done. Also "buck", "back", "beck" to add to the user below me. 93.136.107.237 (talk) 05:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Flush" is more /flʌʃ/. The German "Flasche" has a closer /a/ sound. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  18:55, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In U.S. dialects that have the cot–caught merger, triplets like mass, mess, and moss come pretty close to /æ/, /ɛ/, /ɑ/ examples. Deor (talk) 19:43, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Many entries on the English Wiktionary have an audio file of the pronunciation, sometimes several for different varieties of English. Just find some pairs that only differ in /æ/ vs /ɛ/, such as back and beck, and listen to their pronunciations. --Lambiam 19:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The list in near-open front unrounded vowel is quite extensive, but in many of the languages listed, /æ/ is an allophone of either /a/ or /ɛ/ (and often a rather marginal one). Languages that have fully phonemic /æ/ that contrasts with both /a/ and /ɛ~e/, do not seem to be that numerous. Apart from English, I can think of Finnish, Estonian and Sinhala. --Jbuchholz (talk) 08:26, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Also in the Scandinavian languages, where it is also included in the alphabets (written as 'Æ' in Norwegian and Danish and 'Ä' in Swedish). The full use of /æ/ in addition to /a/ and /e/ is most pronounced in standard Norwegian and in many Norwegian and Swedish dialects, not so much in Danish. --T*U (talk) 12:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Jbuchholz, you make an excellent point, one that should have occurred to me. -- Hoary (talk) 22:53, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It looks like people are confusing the ligature "æ" (in words like encylcopædia) with the sound that in the International Phonetic Alphabet is represented by the symbol æ. The former is basically extinct from modern English orthography.  The latter is quite present in many English dialects, and is often represented by the letter "a" in written form, one of the several distinct vowel sounds represented by a.  The æ sound in English, the Near-open front unrounded vowel, (as noted at English phonology, is the one that most American speakers would use in words like trap, ash, bad, etc.  In American English, this is distinct from the Open front unrounded vowel, which is really not heard in the US, except in the Mid-Atlantic accent, which is something of an artificial and mostly-dead dialect.  The problem in pronunciation noted by the OP may be due to the fact that the two vowels have a similar articulation, but are distinctly different sounds, and very few dialects or languages have both sounds, which means that in most dialects, there is not a minimal pair to compare the two.  -- Jayron 32 12:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciations
The article Deg Hit’an is asking for a pronunciation, is tək hitʼan correct? Macy Sinrich (talk) 23:49, 16 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The article Deg Xitʼan says that "Xitʼan" is [χətʼan], doesn't it? (Or do I misunderstand something?) And from the article Deg Xinag language, I infer that "Deg" is [teg]. -- Hoary (talk) 07:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The paper "Vowel quality and duration in Yukon Deg Xinag" confirms that syllable-initial  represents /t/. --Lambiam 09:37, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And according to the same source syllable-final  is voiced to /g/. Everything combined: /teg χətʼan/. --Lambiam 11:56, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Slashes are for phonemic notations. So /tek χətʼan/, [teɡ χətʼan]. Hargus says [ɡ] and [k] contrast syllable-finally, my bad. What about prosody? Does it have contrastive tone or stress? Nardog (talk) 12:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Deg Xinag has no contrastive tone, and stress is always primary. e is always ə. So it is /təɡ χətʼan/ Macy Sinrich (talk) 16:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * According to whom? The paper Lambiam mentioned (Hargus) says "Orthographic equivalents of the vowels, where different from phonetic symbols, are /ə/ = &lt;i&gt; and /ʊ/ = &lt;u&gt;" (p. 4, n. 9). "stress is always primary" makes little sense. We're not talking about how many degrees of stress there are but where it falls. But Hargus says "Stress generally occurs on the final syllable in Deg Xinag polysyllables ending in a consonant" (p. 7, n. 12), so we may write [χəˈtʼan]. Nardog (talk) 14:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)