Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 May 17

= May 17 =

Pronunciation of Italian name "Ezio"
See Ezio Bosso. Is "Ezio" pronounced (ets-yoh) or  (ets-ee-oh)? I remember when learning Italian that vowels are pronounced individually. Jmar67 (talk) 11:44, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In the same article [] and here an average pronunciation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-HtR944gRQ By the way does it sound like (ets-yoh) or like (ets-ee-oh) for you? 2003:F5:6F08:8200:351A:656A:496C:6A58 (talk) 19:20, 17 May 2020 (UTC) Marco PB


 * An  before a vowel is often realized as a /j/; for example, più is definitely /pju/. For abiezione, Wiktionary gives the pronunciation /a.bjetˈt͡sjo.ne/. When an  is pronounced as /j/, it is a consonant, so a rule about vowels does not apply. --Lambiam 20:01, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In unstressed syllables, Italian treats i + vowel and u + vowel as sequences of /j/ or /w/ + vowel unless they are Medieval Latin creations like influ-ènza, where the suffix has a distinguishable function. The standard is very clear in this regard, prescribing even weird sequences like in continuiamo /konti'nwjamo/, a finite form inherited directly from the spoken Latin in Italy. Ezio has two syllables. What you learned about pronouncing vowels individually is probably to avoid pronouncing vowel letter combinations as in English, where they take on entirely different pronunciations. The situation here is different. However, the IPA on his page is still wrong, as the consonant Z is an autogeminate like /ɲ/, /ʎ/, /ʃ/. It has to be doubled in intervocalic position like the example Lambiam found: [ˈɛttsjo]. For further inquiries, please consult the official pronunciation dictionary by RAI for (voice) actors, also good for proper names like Ezio: http://www.dizionario.rai.it/poplemma.aspx?lid=61509&r=5373. It doesn't directly use IPA, but [i̯] indicates that the vowel has no syllabic value, so practically [j] according to how Wikipedia transcribes Italian words. --Explosivo (talk) 20:45, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you to all. I cannot hear the .ogg file on my iPhone. And I took the "tt" to be an error and changed it. Not sure why it is important to have two, unless they are pronounced separately. Need to look into that. Jmar67 (talk) 21:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: I can hear the file on Commons. To me, the "yoh" sound is not distinct and I can just as easily interpret it as "ee-oh". Jmar67 (talk) 21:16, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Double consonants are crucial and make a difference in words like fato and fatto. They sound longer. For Z not so much because Z is always pronounced long between vowels – it doesn't matter if it's spelled with one or two Zs. The reasons are historical. It's often to compensate sound loss like the prefix a used to be ad in Latin. That's why amméttere "to admit" has a long M. Prepositions like a also invisibly trigger doubling whatever comes after it. This is called syntactic gemination. Contrary to common belief, Italian pronunciation is actually very complicated, with many features not indicated in the spelling. The good old Tuscan way since Dante is currently being challenged by the strong Milan broadcasting presence, but the overall standard hasn't changed. --Explosivo (talk) 23:01, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Related question: is "mezzo" pronounced "medtso", voiced? I have always said and heard "metso" in a music context. Jmar67 (talk) 21:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * See above. Jmar67 (talk) 21:46, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, medtso, voiced, this is also a double Z. Doubling of all intervocalic consonants regardless how they are spelled has maybe become "standard" Italian, bur for me it is just obliging all Italians to speak like the lower classes in Rome. Educated people in Turin for example pronunce Ezio, pozione, Gorizia, razione or sazio always with a single Z. By the way in my opinion we don't pronounce double consonants any longer that single ones, but more stressed, pressing more the tongue against the palate. 2003:F5:6F08:8200:64D1:5E78:649:FDD7 (talk) 22:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC) Marco PB
 * I agree that mezzo is voiced. However, I have to disagree that doubling Z when it’s only spelled with one hasn’t become the standard, it has always been the standard. It is true that the further you go south, the more people tend to double consonants that are not spelled accordingly, but in the case of Z, it’s not an exclusively southern feature. Turin is the capital of Piedmont, a region in the North. Traditional Northern dialects above the La Spezia–Rimini Line are closer to French, so Northerners are naturally going to do some things differently when they speak standard Italian, which is based on the central city of Florence. The economically stronger North and Milan’s presence in media contribute to the view that some Central standard features are now increasingly considered dialectal and stigmatized. Maybe that’s why you mention lower-class Romans. Another Northern feature is voicing every initial Z although words like zucchero and zio are traditionally voiceless. Moreover, double consonants are longer. You aren’t pressing your tongue any stronger (and it’s not always the palate you’re pressing against, that depends on the place of articulation), you’re holding your tongue longer in that position before releasing it.--Explosivo (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Please check my translation
From Martin Nadaud of Paris in 1882: "la grande ville étouffe dans sa camisole de force" I think means "the great city is choking in her straightjacket". Is that right? Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, but maybe "This big city ..." 2003:F5:6F08:8200:351A:656A:496C:6A58 (talk) 19:22, 17 May 2020 (UTC) Marco PB
 * Either one could work; as I understand it, French doesn't make the distinction between "big" and "great". But the garment is a straitjacket. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 20:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "...in its..." if you don't want to sound overly poetic. 93.136.107.237 (talk) 05:04, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Merci beaucoup tout le monde, especially the "straitjacket" spelling correction (the perils of having misspellings as redirects). Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Aside, because this is the language desk: Some people talk about being on the "straight and narrow" path, as though it were a good thing to see things laid out predictably.  But the source is actually Matthew 7:14, which says (KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.  Here strait and narrow are actually synonyms (there's a name for this sort of poetic repetition, which comes from Hebrew, but I can't remember it).  The way could actually be very winding. --Trovatore (talk) 17:09, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * PS, I did think of using a gender-neutral pronoun, but we are taking about a city breathing and wearing a garment in this instance. Alansplodge (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)