Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 May 27

= May 27 =

Ukrainian name
Chess grandmaster Irina Krush (Ірина Круш) has been in the news lately and I'm wondering: 1) What if anything does the name Круш mean in Ukrainian? 2) Is it the same stem as that of the name of former Soviet premier Nikita Krushchev? 3) Do the two of them have significant likelihood of being related? I.e. more likely than if you picked two random people from that region of the world.  Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:3567:50D5:8BFF:4588 (talk) 23:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)


 * For (2), the answer is almost certainly NO. The standard transliteration of Nikita's surname is Khrushchev, the Kh- coming from the Cyrillic letter X (Хрущёв), which is sort of like the ch in the Scottish "loch" (which is like an intensified h sound but, sadly, often gets the "lock" treatment). The K in Irina Krush's name is a straight k sound. To us, they're similar enough to be treated more or less identically. But to the Russians, they are very different indeed, the two letters being widely separated in their alphabet. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * English is an exception in Europe to have merged /x/ into /k/. The only other European languages to completely miss a /x/ sound I can think of are French and Italian. 93.136.158.189 (talk) 11:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Merged X into K"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No, "merged /x/ into /k/". /x/ means the sound represented by the IPA symbol x. See Voiceless velar fricative. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I know what it means. I'd just like to see an example - other than Khrushchev, which isn't one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Khrushchev is certainly one. It should be like Hrushchóv, but gets Krúschev. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:37, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Anarchy, choir, patriarch, kolkhoz. --Lambiam 11:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That last one might work. And there's "Chanukah". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:28, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * L'chaim! --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  12:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)


 * What makes the Russian-borrowed example better than the Greek-borrowed examples? – Do people really pronounce Chanukah with initial /k/? —Tamfang (talk) 02:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, with a guttural H, if they're doing it right. Although most (especially gentiles) probably say it with just a normal H. And are the Greeks roots pronounced with a guttural H? If so, they would qualify. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * They were pronounced with a voiceless velar fricative by the 4th century CE; see Koine Greek phonology § Stop and former-stop consonants, and are still so in present-day Greek, but palatalized to [ ç] before front vowels. --Lambiam 12:34, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In his autobiography, Harpo Marx wrote with amusement about the Russian transliteration of his name, which corresponds with your explanation of the very-guttural and not-as-guttural K sounds: "XAPПO MAPKC", which he transliterated back into English as "Exapno Mapcase". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:46, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I heard once that many Russians are aware of the political theorist Ном Чомски and the linguist Ноам Хомски but not of the link between them. —Tamfang (talk) 02:28, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * A Dictionary of Surnames (Oxford 1988) gives Krusch (and forms with diminutive suffixes) as variants of Grushin, in either of two senses: first as a metronymic from Grusha, a pet form of Agrafya, from Latin Agrippina forsooth; second from grusha ‘pear’. ¶ The same book attributes Хрущёв to хрущ ‘May beetle’. —Tamfang (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks both of you. I remember too Agrippina that is also a Russian given name, like Agrippina Vaganova, founder of the ballet school. 2601:648:8202:96B0:3567:50D5:8BFF:4588 (talk) 01:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Minor point; a Russian "May beetle" is more likely to be a cockchafer, the insect in your link is an American thing. I cant read Russian but ru:Хрущ майский западный has the Latin name for a common cockchafer. Alansplodge (talk) 18:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I lived through the Khrushchev era, and I can tell you "Nikita Cockchafer" would have gone down a treat. Not. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Хрущ is cognate with chrząszcz, sometimes touted as the most unpronounceable word in Polish. See chrząszcz. --ColinFine (talk) 13:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The equivalent Polish WP article is pl:Chrabąszcz majowy or "May beetle". Alansplodge (talk)
 * Hmm.  I've never heard the Jewish people in this area (of whom there are many) pronounce Chanucah, Chaim, etc. with anything other than a rasping "h". 80.44.94.255 (talk) 16:37, 1 June 2020 (UTC)