Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 November 11

= November 11 =

Exemplary behaviour
At midday yesterday the Magic radio newscaster said:

"A report says that the Catholic church in England put its reputation ahead of protecting children from abuse. It also accused its most senior leader, Cardinal Nicholls, of failing to lead by example."

This phrase "lead by example" occurs in Wikipedia policy and is frequently quoted in Arbitration Committee decisions. When did it come into use? 95.145.0.52 (talk) 14:00, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The OED's earliest citation for the exact phrase is from 2002, which seems surprisingly, even implausibly, recent to me. Similar but older phrases are 'teach by example' (1751) and 'learn by example' (1836). Apparently the Latin ductus exemplo (leadership by example) is a motto of the US Marines Officer Candidates School, but I can't tell how long they've been using it. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Verbs that converge in spelling when -ing is added
The -ing forms of bang and range are banging and ranging; they don't rhyme but their spellings converge. Another example is last and paste, which become lasting and pasting. Are there many examples of verbs whose -ing forms are spelled similarly even though the root forms are not?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , isn't this the case with verbs that have a silent e? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  17:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think most verbs that end in "e" tend to drop it when they're used as gerunds. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  17:06, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not even close. The verbs hop and hope have hopping and hoping as their -ing forms. Georgia guy (talk) 17:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * To answer the original question: "bath" and "bathe" both end up as "bathing" (the former probably not in American English), but retain their different pronunciation. The "e" is often kept to differentiate meaning: e.g. singing, singeing; swinging, swingeing. Most probably others. Bazza (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I know you can verb practically any noun, but why would you do it to "bath", when "bathe" is right there? Is there a distinction between "bath"-as-a-verb and "bathe"? --Trovatore (talk) 04:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, in British English at least. vs . We bath babies, others bathe them. Bazza (talk) 10:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, one can verbe any noun, but why should one add an unnecessary "e" after verbing? The form to bath without an "e" is pretty old, pre-dating the time when a rebellious party of tax-evaders deemed it necessary to "dissolve the political bands" with the motherland. Yes, I know, Macbeth has "to bathe". --Lambiam 12:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * isn't this part of a general paradigm where nouns ending in unvoiced fricatives take the voiced versions in their verbal or adjectival forms? You lose your losses but live your life.  You halve an apple and eat half.  That sort of thing. --Trovatore (talk) 19:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Or, perhaps, the stems of these words had, historically, voiced consonants, which were later devoiced in syllable-final positions. --Lambiam 20:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, either way, it still explains the e at the end of "bathe". --Trovatore (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * So, what's the difference between the two? Which constructions use "bath" and which use "bathe"? Do you "bath" something/someone else as opposed to using "bathes" for oneself? Or what?--Khajidha (talk) 14:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * According to bath is to wash in a bath, bathe means either "to swim in a body of water" or "to apply liquid to (a wound, the skin, etc) as a cleansing agent". So you would bath a baby, and then bathe its wounds with a saline solution.DuncanHill (talk) 14:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * All of which would be "bathe" in US English. Except "bathe" meaning "to swim" is rather rare. We just say swim. We do sunbathe, though. --Khajidha (talk) 15:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The "swim" sense is, however, used in some fixed expressions, such as "bathing beauties". Deor (talk) 16:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * What we don't have in AmE is a good verb for just lollygagging around in the water, not really "swimming" except incidentally. That's what the British sense of "bathe" has always suggested to me.  Is that accurate?  Would the British consider someone swimming laps to be "bathing"? --Trovatore (talk) 20:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I call that wading. Or splashing around.--Khajidha (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * "Wading" suggests to me that you're standing up; I didn't mean that. Hanging out in the pool, squatting in the shallow end or treading water in the deep end, batting a plastic ball around, maybe even playing Marco Polo, but not getting any particular systematic exercise; that's what I was talking about.  I was wondering if that's what the Brits mean by "bathing", or whether serious swimming would also be bathing. --Trovatore (talk) 23:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, the verb "to bath" is strictly transitive; it requires an object ("the baby" / "the kids" / "the dog"). You cannot say: *"Each morning, as I get up, I bath, have a cup of tea, and check my diary." --Lambiam 20:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * routing from rout and route. --Amble (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * tinging from ting and tinge. --Amble (talk) 21:44, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Another change observed before -ing is that "ie" turns into "y", so "tying" and "pitying" are spelled similarly even though the root forms are not. And did say similarly, as opposed to identically. --Theurgist (talk) 00:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * putting from put and wikt::putt. --Amble (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)


 * In some cases the lack of rhyme is due to a pronunciation difference of the final consonant cluster (toothing – soothing; longing – sponging), sometimes to a difference for the preceding vowel (fasting – tasting), and sometimes both are different (smithing – writhing; frothing – clothing). If the lack of spelling divergence may be due to a pre-existing condition, then we also have addicting – indicting, and if the full rhyming tail is involved even such pairs as dialing – initialing and biasing – aliasing. --Lambiam 13:13, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what "bathing" (as in "sea-bathing") means to British people today, but it dates from a time when swimming in the sense of getting from point A to point B in the water quickly and efficently was a somewhat specialized skill, and most people immersed themselves in water either to clean themselves or to "take the waters" non-athletically (often for alleged health benefits, as in bathing in mineral water). AnonMoos (talk) 08:28, 15 November 2020 (UTC)