Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 October 6

= October 6 =

Some words from Mexican Spanish
I am doing research on the extinct and obscure Cotoname language. One of only two extant sources is a book with fieldnotes by Albert S. Gatschet from 1886. The pages in question have glosses in Spanish for a number of Cotoname words. The Spanish is sometimes non-standard or in non-standard spelling. In some cases, this reflects local usage, such as when 'fresada' is used for "blanket" rather than standard Spanish 'frazada'. Sometimes it probably reflects Gatschet's imperfect command of written Spanish, such as when he writes 'par abájo' rather than 'para abajo'.

Now, one case I am really struggling with is the gloss 'pavico, raguero' for Cotoname 'xaguátema'. The Cotoname word is attested nowhere else and is not a transparent compound of other known words. So I really need to know what 'pavico, raguero' is supposed to mean! The words preceding this on the page have the senses "tail", "belly" and "guts" ('cola', 'pansa / vientre', 'tripas', 'adentro'). The words following are adjectives meaning "good" and "large".

When John R. Swanton published Gatschet's vocabulary in 1940, he gave the gloss "breechclout" and wrote out the Spanish gloss as 'pavico, vaguero' (Linguistic Material from Southern Texas, p. 119) pdf of book. The first letter of the second word looks more like an 'r' than a 'v' to me in the manuscript, but let's say 'vaguero' might be right. Apparently, 'pavico' can mean "diaper" in Mexican Spanish. That's not quite "breechclout" but it's not far off. For 'raguero' or 'vaguero' I'm quite stuck. Can anyone help? Haukur (talk) 16:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I suppose this is a misspelling for vaquero(s). In Spanish, a pantalón vaquero (plural: pantalones vaqueros), literally meaning "cowboy trousers", is a pair of jeans; the term is often shortened to just vaqueros – always in the plural, just like jeans. --Lambiam 22:37, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In the Spanish Wikipedia article the singular vaquero is used as short for tela de vaquero, denim or a type of fabric similar to denim. The text states that in the 17th century vaquero was crucial for working-class people in northern Italy as attested in a series of paintings from that period depicting scenes of impoverished lower class people. --Lambiam 22:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Does the gloss in the ms. have a comma between the two Spanish words? I'm asking because pavico vaquero would make total sense. --Lambiam 22:56, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for looking into this with me. Yes, it does have a comma. But I suppose it's possible that the informant said "pavico vaquero" and meant it as one phrase even if Gatschet did not take it that way. It does remain a problem that the first letter really does look a lot more like an 'r' than a 'v'. So if this is 'vaquero' we have to assume he not only wrote 'g' instead of 'q' but also botched the 'v' so badly that it looks more like an 'r'. Meanwhile, I have found a text which translates 'pavico' as "loincloth". If that's what it meant to Gloria E. Anzaldúa, I suppose that's also what it meant out in the sticks in Tamaulipas in 1886. Haukur (talk) 01:13, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I should add - User:Alarichall very graciously took the photograph I just linked to. In a windowless fortress, he told me. Haukur (talk) 01:20, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I now realise that there isn't a photo of the National Anthropological Archives on the Wikipedia entry and that while I took all those photos of manuscripts when I visited, I neglected to photograph the building! Oh well, you'll just have to image it ;-) Sorry I can't help with the Spanish though... Alarichall (talk) 13:54, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Aren't the National Anthropological Archives housed in the National Museum of Natural History, of which we have several photographs at Wikimedia Commons? --Lambiam 23:45, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have a new idea. Could 'raguero' be a misspelling of 'rabero'? Which might be a derivation from 'rabera', "tail, behind"? Like 'el rabero' in this bizarre photograph. The "tail guy"? Would that be at all plausible as a slang term for a loincloth? Haukur (talk) 14:37, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Why not 'raquero'? See wikt:raquero, es:Raquero_(persona), es:Raquero (embarcación)?
 * Maybe! But it's hard to square that with any sense of 'pavico' known to me. Haukur (talk) 18:06, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * My best guess would be the garment worn by somebody who is combing the beach, some type of shorts (or loincloth?). --Amble (talk) 18:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I was mostly going by the photo, where the first letter really does look like 'r' and not 'v', but the 'g'/'q' seems to me to be distinct from the other examples of 'g' on the same page. (Unfortunately I don't see another 'q' to compare.) --Amble (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's another page with three or so q's. And, incidentally, this shows how poor the Spanish can be: "Los Tijones se caváron toditos", with 'caváron' later corrected to 'acabáron'. Haukur (talk) 21:21, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, the 'q' looks pretty different. How about "braguero"? --Amble (talk) 23:40, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Bingo! That's got to be it. Thank you so much. Science marches on. Well, philology marches on. Can I credit you if I ever get this article out the door? Haukur (talk) 23:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Haha, you can credit or not, as you see fit. Thanks for your work! --Amble (talk) 18:05, 8 October 2020 (UTC)