Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 September 24

= September 24 =

The in front of abbreviations
I heard you can ask language questions here. Should you write "SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry" or "The SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry"? TIA Im The IP  (talk) 08:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I think it depends. It's usually used with "The BBC", never with "NATO". AnonMoos (talk) 09:08, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Because NATO is an acronym? Im The IP  (talk) 09:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's that simple: ABC for example. Bazza (talk) 09:26, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * In Australia, we do say The ABC when you are referring to their TV channel. --TrogWoolley (talk) 11:04, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * ImTheIP -- BBC and NATO are both acronyms, both commonly preceded by "the" in their full form when used in a sentence ("the British Broadcasting Corporation", "the North Atlantic Treaty organization"). AnonMoos (talk) 10:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes they are, and we do indeed refer to "the BBC"; but not to "the NATO". How to tell whether to include the "the" seems to be the original question. Bazza (talk) 10:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * NATO is normally pronounced like a word ("Nayto"), whereas BBC is pronounced with each letter individually. Could that be relevant?
 * That's not a reliable guide. We have 4 types:
 * initialisms with the: the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation), the BBC, the FBI, the OECD, the IOC, the IRS, but
 * initialisms without the: ABC (American Broadcasting Company), ADHD, CBS
 * true acronyms with the: the NASDAQ, the RAF, the Gestapo, but
 * true acronyms without the: QANTAS, NATO, CERN, NASA, OPEC. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  17:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I would just like to note that the notion that there are such a thing as "true" acronyms which do not include all of Jack's examples is disputed. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are schools of thought and climates of opinion about this. (I went to the best school, naturally.) But my starting point is that any other thing called -onym is a word. Not just a name or a title, but a word. BBC, FBI, CBS etc are not words in the traditional sense. They might get counted as "words" in a word count of a document, but that's about it. They might even get possessivised ("the BBC's charter"), but that means little when we now hear atrocities like "He and I's father".  Besides, I'd argue that what's being possessivised in my BBC example is just C, not the whole expression BBC. Others are free to differ. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * There is no general rule or convention. The best may be to follow the usage of the organization itself: "The SPLC is a catalyst for racial justice ...", "The SPLC stands up for ...", "Each year since 1990, the SPLC has published ...". However, they themselves are not 100% consistent: "SPLC is a nonprofit, tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization". --Lambiam 09:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, or the style guide of the national press association in your country. If the US, I think there are two, but just checking what the Associated Press does, it seems they include "the" nearly 4/5 of the time for this particular organization, based on ghits. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:28, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * It might not be best to follow the usage of the organization itself. For example I understand that the CIA is sometimes called just CIA by insiders, but omission of the definite article seems aggrandizing and inappropriate to this outsider. Temerarius (talk) 20:34, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * From the CIA's website: " The CIA is an independent agency responsible for ..." and "Like all government agencies, the CIA was not created overnight". --Lambiam 11:27, 26 September 2020 (UTC)


 * CIA insiders supposedly call it "the Company" more often than anything else... AnonMoos (talk) 21:23, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * French names for countries seem to be a similarly mixed bag. Some have the definite article in front (Le, La, Les, L'), but many don't. I think one just has to memorise them. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * This is a feature of languages generally, thus "the Netherlands", "the Ukraine", etc. 92.7.217.34 (talk) 10:58, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Except it's not "the Ukraine" any more. That applied when it was a region of Russia, and continued after it became a separate Soviet republic, but ever since it became an independent sovereign nation in the 1990s it's just "Ukraine" now. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  16:45, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * But it is "The Gambia", which is an independent sovereign nation that refers to itself that way (with a capital "T"). --Lambiam 11:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Officially "Republic of The Gambia", nearly consistent with "Republic of the Congo", and both named for their primary rivers. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:38, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This gets back to my point about French names for countries. In English, the use of the definite article is very much the exception. But in French, it's almost universal (more so than I thought above; and to boot, one has to know whether it's le, la or les) – except for certain exceptions, which tells me are:
 * Antigua-et-Barbuda, Bahrein, Chypre, Cuba, Djibouti, Haïti, Israël, Kiribati, Madagascar, Malte, Maurice, Monaco, Nauru, Niue, Oman, Saint-Christophe-et-Niévès, Sainte-Lucie, Sainte-Marin, Saint-Vincent-et-les-Grenadines, Sao Tomé-et-Principe, Singapour, Sri Lanka.
 * Most of these are islands, which may be significant (except many other islands get an article). But Djibouti, Israel, Monaco are Oman are not islands. Who makes these decisions? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * No one makes any decisions about languages. Changes and variations happen randomly, without cause, and for no purpose.  -- Jayron 32 11:54, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Rhetorical questions don't really require an answer. But thanks, anyway. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  15:40, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I can't make heads or tails of the above discussion. But here is a specific example: Simon Wiesenthal Center (SWC). Is it "the SWC" or "SWC"? Im The IP (talk) 17:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I think the conversation got convoluted because there's no apparent rule as to whether or not "the" is required for acronyms or abbreviations. For your specific question, I would use "the SWC". If you ask me why, I would say because it looks right to me (and refer you to the tortuous discussion above). Bazza (talk) 09:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Their website uses just "SWC" in page titles and when used attributively (as in "SWC officials"), but in full statements they mostly use "the SWC": "a goal the SWC has contributed to", "The SWC supports all Presidents", "The SWC is the only Jewish NGO ...". As I wrote before, I’d follow the use of the organization – unless there are strong reasons not to do so, --Lambiam 11:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Current labels for or types of capitalism
I'm interested in a list of terms describing current forms/types of capitalism. 'Digital capitalism' is one. 'Neoliberal capitalism' another. There are many of these labels, often critical, floating around but I struggle to remember them and they are a little challenging to google up. Can people suggest current descriptions of capitalism that illustrate or explain the many critiques currently available and relevant? Thanks if you can help. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A447:A6CD:1:680C:EC0A:99F2:8557 (talk) 12:30, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Shareholder value capitalism -- originally used with positive connotations, but today usually negatively... AnonMoos (talk) 13:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * We also have articles on Eco-capitalism, Corporate capitalism, Democratic capitalism, State capitalism, Authoritarian capitalism, Anarcho-capitalism, Social capitalism, Welfare capitalism, Consumer capitalism, Caravan capitalism, Regulatory capitalism, Surveillance capitalism, Rentier capitalism, Black capitalism, Collective capitalism, Crony capitalism, Finance capitalism, Gentlemanly capitalism, Humanistic capitalism, Heroic capitalism, Inclusive capitalism, Penny capitalism, Pink capitalism, Sustainable capitalism. For criticism, I'd start with Criticism of capitalism and the category Category:Criticism of capitalism. ---Sluzzelin talk
 * There is a portal for this subject Portal:Capitalism and a project WikiProject Capitalism.  We also have individual articles on advanced capitalism, anti-state capitalism, Casino Capitalism, ersatz capitalism, financial capitalism, free-market capitalism, green capitalism, homocapitalism, industrial capitalism, liberal capitalism, merchant capitalism, monopoly capitalism, neo-capitalism, party-state capitalism, peak capitalism, progressive capitalism, racial capitalism, rainbow capitalism, stakeholder capitalism, state monopoly capitalism, supercapitalism and technocapitalism. 92.7.217.34 (talk) 16:06, 25 September 2020 (UTC)