Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 April 28

= April 28 =

Jerusalemsfararna (translation from Swedish, base on Selma Lagerlöf's novel Jerusalem)
Hi. I was wondering how would one translate the word fare here? My problem is that "fara" seems wrong, or misspelled, since farar is plural for "fare", you see, which seems... weird. Might it be correct to say something like "The Travelers from Jerusalem", where one forces "fara" be single-case of farar?I sincerely hope there's someone here who might be able to give me a better translation for Jerusalemsfararna, and save my whole life. Thanks in advance, Niles (from Hebrew Wiki). Niles Anderssøn (talk) 10:02, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The material I have on Norwegian strongly suggests that "far" is the verb stem, "-ar" is the agentive suffix, "-(e)n" is the definite article suffix, and the final vowel indicates the plural. So in Nynorsk, the word for "baker" is bakar indef.sg., bakaren def.sg., bakarar indef.plur., and bakarane def.plur. (this last is "bakerne" in the other form of Norwegian)... AnonMoos (talk) 10:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes that was my problem. I didn't think about -farare, which does the trick. Thanks, Niles Anderssøn (talk) 11:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Since Norwegian is mentioned: In Norwegian the derivation would be -farer (bokmål) and -farar (nynorsk), in the plural definite Jerusalemsfarerne resp. Jerusalemsfararane. --T*U (talk) 11:20, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * BOOOM! That's it! fare is danish! argh! :) Niles Anderssøn (talk) 11:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This is the verb att fara (to travel) at work. From that is extracted en -farare (one who travels), seldom used alone, but in words like polfarare (one who travels to the pole) or in this case jerusalemsfarare – one who travels to Jerusalem. In the book title it is in the plural definite form: "those who travelled to Jerusalem". --T*U (talk) 10:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes that makes sense. Thanks! Niles Anderssøn (talk) 10:45, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Another spin-off: The cultural setting would indicate a connection to pilgrimage, so that Jerusalemsfararna would implicitly be interpreted as past tense ("those who travelled to Jerusalem") rather than present ("those who travel ..."), even if there is nothing in the word itself to convey this meaning. --T*U (talk) 11:20, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * True. I was taught (years ago) that "Jerusalemsfararane" means something like "those who suffered in Jerusalem", though now as I came to translate it to Hebrew, I doubted it. att fara means both "risk" (substantive) and "travel" (verb). fare on the other hand does not exist in Swedish. "those who travel" seems much better translation. Niles Anderssøn (talk) 11:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The meaning "those who suffered ..." that you were taught, must have beeen an "after the fact" interpretation. The story itself is based on a real happening back in 1896, when a group of people left the small village Nås in Dalarne, Sweden and travelled to Jerusalem to await the second coming of Christ, which was supposed to happen at Easter 1897. The history of their life in a strict Christian zionist sect was indeed a story of suffering. --T*U (talk) 12:05, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * And therefore a saying as "those who suffered" is nothing but a subjective point of view, isn't it? I added it as an alternative translation, though mentioned the fact that it IS actually subjective after all. Thanks everyone, it was a pleasure visiting here! Niles Anderssøn (talk) 12:42, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, it is not really an alternative translation, since nothing in the title suggests suffering. At most it is an alternative description of the story, but as such quite objective, I would say. Anyway, pleasure has been on my side. --T*U (talk) 13:06, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Compare Korsfararna, meaning, "the Crusaders", used, e.g., in the article Korståg on the Swedish Wikipedia. --Lambiam 17:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

A Gretchenfrage
The given name Gretchen is of obvious German heritage, but very old-fashioned sounding in the German speaking world these days. Other places, especially the U.S., Gretchen has become a popular name. Are there other examples where a language culture adopted a name from a different language in which said given name has meanwhile become obsolete. I'm interested in all answers, but mainly in examples where the now-obsolete name still had traction a few centuries ago, let's say still popular after the 1500s. Thank you in advance-! --Sluzzelin talk  16:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not a good example, but the female given name Mignon, although undoubtedly borrowed from French, is not at all used in France as a given name, but has some currency outside the Francophone world. It did not fall into disuse in France, though; it was also not used in the past. --Lambiam 17:19, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Still, an interesting name. Though not a diminutive by suffix, still a 'cute' name. Gretchen  is a diminutive, and (pure spontaneous unsourced speculation) maybe some of these names have gone a bit out fashion where the cutesiness is apparent, because it's not borrowed from a different language. I now thought of Carina/Karina too. "Carina" certainly exists in Italy, but I think versions of it are at least as if not more popular in other regions. I don't know how popular it used to be either. ---Sluzzelin talk  17:37, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this is perfectly suitable example, but the given name Donna, which is as far as I can tell often construed as a name with an Italian etymology, is (and was) an extremely rare and unusual name in Italy. In the past it derived from Saint Domna and nowadays is mainly an Anglicism from American sitcoms. Literally it means "woman" in Italian. --82.48.36.71 (talk) 17:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Edson is a name which has an obviously English (or North/West Germanic more broadly) origin, literally meaning "Son of Ed", but it is far more common as a given name in Latin America, especially Brazil. -- Jayron 32 17:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * "Michelle" is or was supposedly more popular in the English-speaking countries than in France... AnonMoos (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The name Adolf is out of use in Germany, but Adolfo still has some usage in other parts of the world. --Amble (talk) 18:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Which article introduced me to Adulf Evil-child -- thanks for that! HenryFlower 20:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * From the closing credits of Airplane!: Best boy (electric) - Frank McKane; Worst boy - Adolf Hitler. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Champagne
I'm getting confused by the article Champagne. Should the word "Champagne" (meaning sparkling wine from the Champagne region, not the region itself) be capitalised when used in English or not? The article uses both. J I P &#124; Talk 19:38, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No need. In British English we always write it with a lower case 'c'. --Viennese Waltz 19:44, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * There is considerable discussion of this point on the talk page.--Shantavira|feed me 08:48, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It is common for the names of appellation wines to be capitalized: Amarone, Beaujolais, Chablis. The term "[C/c]hampagne" is ambiguous – it is used to refer to the AOC wine exclusively produced in the Champagne wine region, but also to sparkling wines produced from the same types of grape by the same methods elsewhere. When referring specifically to the wine from the Champagne wine region, it is (IMO) strange to follow another capitalization approach than one would use for "[B/b]ordeaux". While it is not a crime to write "the 2010 vintage is a very enjoyable classic bordeaux", this may go against someone's sense of style, including that of a copy editor. But if the term is used in the generic sense of "sparkling wine", capitalizing would be confusing; one also does not capitalize "rosé" or "lemonade". --Lambiam 10:36, 29 April 2021 (UTC)