Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 August 12

= August 12 =

The phrase "in flumina aut præcipitia"
Needless to say, both "Wikipedia:Requested articles" and "Wikipedia:Requested articles/Other" are blind alleys which lead nowhere! Therefore, how are the untermenschen supposed to "add a request for it", "it" being a missing article or notelet?

The phrase "in flumina aut præcipitia" occurs at en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ignis_fatuus, so why does wiktionary.org not have a page at either wiktionary.org/wiki/in_flumina_aut_pr%C3%A6cipitia or wiktionary.org/wiki/in_flumina_aut_præcipitia ?

Is Wikipedia yet another ignis fatuus? 92.40.174.15 (talk) 09:03, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Try again, in English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:45, 12 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Six million, three hundred and thirty-five thousand, seven hundred and thirteen (currently) existing articles does not seem to me to be a will-o'-the-wisp. However, asking on one website why a different website doesn't contain a particular item does strike me as a fatuous exercise.
 * Since the contents of both separate projects are entirely created by unpaid volunteers who contribute (or not) whatever they choose to without any directions from any non-existent ǔbermenschen, the reason for the lack so far of any particular article in either is the same for both: no-one has chosen to create it – yet.
 * As Robert Burton himself has unaccountably failed to contribute an article to us (or Wictionary) on the subject of this throwaway line in his 1621 medical textbook, it must fall to someone else, if to anyone, with the appropriate knowledge and interest. Since you yourself,, have so far shown the most familiarity with the topic, I suggest that you take this tide in your affairs at the flood and write it yourself. We are all untermenschen here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.27.112 (talk) 15:05, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There is of course nothing about that one-off phrase that's in need of an article to explain it, either on Wikipedia or on Wiktionary. It simply means what it says: "into rivers or precipices" (figuratively, presumably, for "into dangerous places" or "into dead ends"). Wiktionary has all the info necessary at wikt:flumen and wikt:praecipitium. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:11, 12 August 2021 (UTC)


 * 92.40.174.15 -- Wikipedia actually has 20 articles listing Latin phrases, something which should not have been too difficult to discover (List of Latin phrases (A), List of Latin phrases (B), List of Latin phrases (C), List of Latin phrases (D), List of Latin phrases (E), List of Latin phrases (F), List of Latin phrases (G), List of Latin phrases (H), List of Latin phrases (I), List of Latin phrases (L), List of Latin phrases (M), List of Latin phrases (N), List of Latin phrases (O), List of Latin phrases (P), List of Latin phrases (Q), List of Latin phrases (R), List of Latin phrases (S), List of Latin phrases (T), List of Latin phrases (U), List of Latin phrases (V)). However, your quote is not an established frequently-occurring phrase, so it doesn't appear in the "I" list (and there certainly won't be a Wikipedia article devoted to it!)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Had 92.40.174.15 dared to read one more sentence in ignis fatuus, they would have read: An ignis fatuus, that bewitches, \ And leads men into pools and ditches, which is at least for insiders a hint to the meaning of in flumina aut præcipitia. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:30, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * When did being an "insider" become a requirement for making sense of Wikipedia? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as a Wikipedia insider. All of us, no matter how many zillions of edits we've made or whatever admin positions we may have held, are outsiders nibbling at the rich chocolatey nutty coating and gazing inwards with our minds' eyes at the delicious gooey, creamy centre of all our lives. (I'll leave now.) --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:42, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, looking for nougats of information. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

panpipe, pan flute
I found myself thinking about panpipes today: Where have all the Bolivian buskers gone who piped "El Condor pasa" in every shoppings street, unremittingly, and seemingly without complaint, a fixture of my childhood? When did they disappear, and why didn't I notice at the time? Did they silently curse Paul Simon behind their panpipes, or was ist pan flutes they were playing? Had they even ever heard of Paul Simon, or of Pan, the Greek god of shepherds? More to the point, this being the language ref. desk: Why is "panpipe" is written as one word but "pan flute" as two - something to do with pancakes...? Then I wondered why "pan flute" is not capitalized; Pan is definitely a proper name, innit? And then I wondered who coined the term in the first place, and whether the original coinage involved "flute" or a "pipe" and ended up with this this ngram, which begs another question: what happened to the "panpipe" in 2005? It's been in steep decline ever since, and for the first time in history the "pan flute" may take the lead. Does the collapse of the panpipe coincide with the sudden disappearance of all those Bolivians? --2003:DA:A716:4D00:C134:5E50:5DB:A5EB (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The OED example sentences begin with three from 1805, 1846, 1893 spelled “Pan's-pipe”, then five from 1820, 1825, 1879, 1905, 1929 spelled “pan-pipe” / “pan-pipes”. Then they skip right to 2000 and panpipe. Dropping the hyphen over time is a common spelling phenomenon. See Thousands of hyphens perish as English marches on 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, I didn't even think of hyphens, so I updated my [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=panpipe%2Cpan+pipe%2Cpan+flute%2Cpanflute%2CPan+flute%2CPan+pipe%2CPan%27s+flute%2CPan%27s+pipe%2Cpan-pipe%2Cpan-flute&year_start=1680&year_end=2019&case_insensitive=on&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cpanpipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpanpipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPanpipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPANPIPE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20PIPE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20FLUTE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpanflute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpanflute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPanflute%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20FLUTE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20PIPE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20%27s%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20Flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20%27s%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20Pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bpan%20%27s%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20-%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20-%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20-%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20-%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20-%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20-%20flute%3B%2Cc0#t4%3B%2Cpanpipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpanpipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPanpipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPANPIPE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20PIPE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20FLUTE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpanflute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpanflute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPanflute%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20FLUTE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20Pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPAN%20PIPE%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20%27s%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20Flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPan%20%27s%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20%27s%20Pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bpan%20%27s%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20-%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20-%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20-%20pipe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpan%20-%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpan%20-%20flute%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPan%20-%20flute%3B%2Cc0 ngram], it seems the panpipe first overtook the pan-pipe around 1920 and has reigned supreme from 1938 onwards, long predating the age of the internet. Still I wonder: why hasn't the pan flute/pan-flute likewise contracted into one word? And shouldn't it be spelt with a capital P? (Also, for what it's worth: I now believe that the term was coined by some Frenchman somewhere around 1680 and involved a flûte). --2A01:C23:5D8E:6400:DC88:A92C:CCD1:C268 (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)


 * A Musical Manual, or, Technical Directory Thomas Busby (London, 1828) p. 134 has "Pipes of Pan". Obviously a well established term to appear in a music encyclopedia. Alansplodge (talk) 18:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The story of Pan and Syrinx told in Ovid’s Metamorphoses would have been well known in Western Europe since at least the high middle ages, Chaucer references the work. Syrinx was turned into a bunch of reeds to avoid the amorous attentions of Pan, who cut the reeds into uneven lengths to make an musical instrument. Whether he used it for busking is not recorded. Alansplodge (talk) 19:09, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, it seems that Syrinx was also turned into a syringe, in English at least. Food for thought...--2A01:C23:5D8E:6400:DC88:A92C:CCD1:C268 (talk) 19:30, 12 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Also, I think "flute" and "pipe" would have been more-or-less synonymous in Early Modern English; "pipe" coming from Old English: a "simple tubular musical wind instrument", and "flute" being a medieval loanword from French: Ancient flutes were direct, blown straight through a mouthpiece but held away from the player's mouth; the modern transverse or German flute developed 18c. The older style then sometimes were called flûte-a-bec (French, literally "flute with a beak"). The modern design and key system of the concert flute were perfected 1834 by Theobald Boehm.   Alansplodge (talk) 10:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * As to where the panpipe buskers have gone, certainly in the UK in the last decade, there has been a drive by local councils in tourist cities to regulate busking either by permit schemes or by limiting the number of places where busking is allowed (or both), hoping to exclude those who are just an annoying noise. Alansplodge (talk) 09:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)


 * You have reminded me of a guitarist who sang "Cielito Lindo" all day in Montgomery station, San Francisco. Wonder where he is now. —Tamfang (talk) 01:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Buskers who want to play on the London Underground now have to pass an audition in front of a panel of "music experts".  Alansplodge (talk) 09:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)