Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 December 22

= December 22 =

The word primorial
All are invited to refer to my recent question I have just posed at the Reference desk/Mathematics. HOTmag (talk) 09:48, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * At first I thought it was a typo for primordial. Whaddayaknow? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I made extensive use of the term for about a month without noticing it has no "d". Card Zero  (talk) 15:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

She's a Tartar
This British English idiom is used to mean someone is "fierce, bad-tempered or strict." Is this now considered archaic and is it also considered racist, even though Genghis Khan is long dead? Thanks. 86.187.175.115 (talk) 12:01, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * It's just plain obsolete. The only "tartar(e)" the average Brit might be familiar with these days is the sauce sometimes served with fish. BTW Khan was a Mongol, not Tartar. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * You ought to ask your dentist about that. We don't generally call people Mongols any more, either. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Today they are mostly known for making sauce. --2603:6081:1C00:1187:D452:9BDF:BD38:B77F (talk) 14:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * So she was rather saucy? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:47, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Quoting our article Tatars: "Historically, the term Tatars (or Tartars) was applied to anyone originating from the vast Northern and Central Asian landmass then known as Tartary, a term which was also conflated with the Mongol Empire itself. More recently, however, the term has come to refer more narrowly to related ethnic groups who refer to themselves as Tatars or who speak languages that are commonly referred to as Tatar, namely Tatar by Volga Tatars (Tatars proper), Crimean Tatar by Crimean Tatars and Siberian Tatar by Siberian Tatars." Given the (probably) Turkic origins of the given name Temüjin and the title Genghiz, the great Khan may well have been an ethnic Tatar; the epithet Mongol in Mongol Empire may originally have been more geographic or geopolitical (referring to people from Mongolia) than ethnic. --Lambiam 16:04, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I used to work with a man whose surname was "Tatur" and spoke with a mid-European accent.  I often wondered where he was from and the origin of the name.   It turns out it's Polish (in fact thinking back I think he did say he was from Poland).    There could have been a lot of joshing with a name like that but I don’t think there was. 92.31.251.35 (talk) 21:03, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Ah, bless you. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:13, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Anyhow, tartar says the expression is "dated" while the Oxford Learner's Dictionary says "old-fashioned". Personally, I haven't heard it used in conversation since I was at school in London in the 1970s. Alansplodge (talk) 22:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Good heavens, where have you been for the past 50 years... ? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * On a ship! Do I get a prize? Alansplodge (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, I recall an Aunty in Cardiff, in the 1970s, describing one of her naughty grand-daughters as being "a proper little tartar". I can't say I've ever heard it since. It seems there are around 7 million Tartars spread across the world, but I doubt the term would be seen as racist; a bit like saying someone was "dancing like a whirling dervish"? A bit quaint. Neither of these terms appears at List of ethnic slurs. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * However, "work like a Turk" is not really acceptable now, even though it could be taken as rather complimentary. Alansplodge (talk) 11:16, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Arhh, I miss the 80s, don't you? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a very long time since I've heard "work like a Turk" out loud. "A right Tartar" or variations thereof I have heard this century, I would say more often from rural (any class) or urban working-class people than the urban middle-class. DuncanHill (talk) 15:00, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Love that song, thanks! The expression "young Turk" for "A young person embracing innovation and desiring radical change to the established order" is dated - I can remember my grandmothers (both born 1912) using it. I don't think it seemed obsolete to me when Rod sang about them, but I was rather bookish and fond of old and interesting phrases or sayings. DuncanHill (talk) 15:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Checkmate! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)