Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 February 14

= February 14 =

Bands: is or are?
When writing about a band, should is or are be used? Is the band a single entity or should are be used as there are multiple member? Thank you. Vesuvio14 (talk) 18:10, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * There's some variation in British and American usage in this regard. MOS:PLURALS offers a little guidance. Deor (talk) 18:23, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * See also MOS:ENGVAR. When writing about a British band, I'd use "the band are ...". For a US band, use singular verb forms. 50.196.138.188 (talk) 19:55, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that American usage is somewhat mixed following the name of the band itself. If the name is plural in form, a plural verb is common ("The Beach Boys are ..."), whereas if it's singular in form, a singular verb is common ("Creedence Clearwater Revival is ..."). Deor (talk) 21:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * And The The are. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * This is an old debate. See the heated discussion at Talk:U2/Are_vs._is, for example.  What I want to know is, which version of English applies when talking about a band that is neither British nor American, such as Kraftwerk. --Viennese Waltz 21:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * As the topic does not have "strong ties" to an English-speaking country, the controlling guideline is WP:RETAIN. If the article has an established variety, don't change it without consensus.  If it doesn't, do what you want.  But probably not a good idea to go uniformizing the ENGVAR of a mature article without mentioning what you're doing on the talk page and allowing time for comment. --Trovatore (talk) 21:49, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, de:Kraftwerk (Band) begins "Kraftwerk ist eine deutsche Band aus Düsseldorf..." So maybe that's a clue? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:51, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * (triple e.c., this is so hot!) Kraftwerk ist a band? :-P, slightly more seriously, since Kraftwerk is in the singular, might as well use 'is'. But what do we do with Einstürzende Neubauten or Die Toten Hosen? ---Sluzzelin talk  21:52, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * As I just discovered, Neubauten get "ist" on German Wikipedia, while Die Toten Hosen (featured article on German WP) get "ist der Name einer Musikgruppe". Same with Die Ärzte: "ist der Name einer deutschsprachigen Band aus Berlin". So they use "is the name of a band". Not what anyone asked, but something I didn't know about de:wp. ---Sluzzelin talk  22:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * No de.wiki article for this band yet. But they were based in Leicester. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The grammatical form chosen in another language gives us absolutely and completely zero information about what to use in English. --ColinFine (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolutely true! (I tend to slide). ---Sluzzelin talk  00:00, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think in some cases the band's fans' location can determine what sounds right. If a band were from the US and unknown there, but popular in England, then it would look weird if Wikipedia and only wikipedia referred to them as "is." Temerarius (talk) 00:50, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Obligatory links: English has two forms of subject-verb agreement: formal agreement, where the verb conjugation matches the form of the subject, and notional agreement, where the verb conjugation matches what the subject represents (its "notion"). The classic example would be something like the band "The Who".  Since they are a group of people, notional agreement would indicate that we treat "The Who" as a group "The Who are a rock band..."  However, the form of the word is singular, so formal agreement would indicate we treat "The Who" as a single thing "The Who is a rock band".  It should be noted that while there are general trends, whereby British English tends to favor notional agreement and American English tends to favor formal agreement, there are exceptions in both varieties and in actual usage, we can find British English examples of formal agreement and US English examples of notional agreement, and everything in between.  What Wikipedia articles should do is reflect actual usage in the wild in the form of English to which something has ties; which is why the article The Who uses notional agreement, while the article The Band uses formal agreement.  But these specific examples are only that way because these specific examples work that way "in the wild" and not because there should never, ever be any exceptions to the trend.  There are.  -- Jayron 32 12:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

"c" -> "qu" in Spanish
Why does the letter "c" change into "qu" when adding the diminutive "-ito" suffix in Spanish? For example taco becomes taquito. The pronunciation of the letter remains the same. Why is it not "tacito"? J I P &#124; Talk 18:28, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The "i" following the "c" would make the "c" soft.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 18:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * See Spanish orthography.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 18:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Note that tácito/-ta in Spanish means "tacit". Both of which, of course, have a soft "c" sound. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:10, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I took an embarrassingly long time to recognize the etymology of taqueria. Such alternations are seen especially in verbs, where one ending has –a/o/u– and another has –e/i-: hard ca alternates with que, and soft ce with za, preserving the sound of the consonant. —Tamfang (talk) 01:40, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * In English we sometimes add a 'k' for the same purpose: "picknicked", "bivouacked". --ColinFine (talk) 14:57, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you mean picnicked Elizium23 (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I do, thank you . --ColinFine (talk) 13:37, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Damnatio memoriae
The article on damnatio memoriae notes that the term, referring to the relegation of a person's identity to oblivion, as if they never existed, is a neo-Latin expression apparently first attested in 1689, and Wiktionary states that "despite the practice being well attested since antiquity, the term itself is an early modern invention. It is not known whether the Romans had a specific term for this punishment". That made me curious, what wording would the ancient peoples use then, when speaking about the practice? The German article suggests the term abolitiō nōminis, but I seem to be unable to find anything regarding this term either, aside from a couple of metal band names. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 22:40, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * If you take off the diacritics and search "abolitio nominis" Google Books finds a few references:
 * "What is more intriguing, however, is that he was passed abolitio nominis, as attested by at least three inscriptions". Empire and Religion: Religious Change in Greek Cities under Roman Rule (p. 99)
 * "In pronouncing an abolitio nominis on an individual, the Senate sanctioned not only the seizure of his property but also the erasure of his memory—from annals, official lists (fasti), coins, inscriptions, and statues". Was 1 Esdras First?: An Investigation Into the Priority and Nature of 1 Esdras (p. 145)
 * Alansplodge (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I just had a read on the Italian article and it also provides rescissō āctorum, which I believe means "to cut away what had been done" or something along those lines. A look at Wiktionary tells me that "rescissō" is Late Latin, compared to "rescindō". --72.234.12.37 (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Rescissō is a verb form. The term is rēsciss i o āctōrum. See also the etymology of rescission. --Lambiam 10:01, 16 February 2021 (UTC)