Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 January 8

= January 8 =

What is a dark-of-night statement?
It is stated on cnn.com that
 * "Earlier Thursday, Trump issued a dark-of-night statement vowing an "orderly transition," which came about in part to stanch a wave of resignations from within the West Wing and the broader administration, according to a person familiar with the matter."

What does 'dark-of-night statement' mean? Bandy långe (talk) 01:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Statement released at a time or in a manner such that the person issuing it did not seem to want to give it wide publicity. AnonMoos (talk) 04:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, it doesn't even need to be metaphorical as you are interpreting it. It is literally a statement made while it is dark, during the night time.  There is no need to invoke idiom or metaphor here as the literal meaning is the only necessary meaning to read.  -- Jayron 32 16:58, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What time was it issued? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:52, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * 3:49 am on Dan Scavino's twitter as Trump's was locked. Rmhermen (talk) 07:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Chinese vs. Traditional Chinese
I'm the creator of the SCP Foundation article, which contains a list in the footnotes of non-English language branches of the writing community. They've had a Chinese branch for awhile, but they recently added a Traditional Chinese branch as well (website for reference, scroll down to see language list). Linguistically speaking, should these be counted as two languages or one? Also, does "Chinese" have a longer name that can be used to Distinguish it from "Traditional Chinese." Basically, I'm looking for advice on how to count the newest wiki branch and how to describe the two Chinese branches. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:46, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * If "traditional Chinese" contrasts with Chinese written with PRC simplified characters, then they are not separate languages. There is only one Wikipedia for both... AnonMoos (talk) 04:54, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I thought there would be a bigger difference between the two; I don't have any clue why there are two Chinese SCP Foundation websites. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 05:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * , it should really be Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese. Traditional is still used in places like Hong Kong, while the mainland typically uses Simplified. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 08:58, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * (ec) Wiktionary calls the two Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese, which sounds as if it is about the language but actually refers only to the characters. For example, the character for Mandarin guó (meaning "country") is traditionally 國, but has been simplified to 国. In Mainland China, the simplified characters are used, but Taiwan uses the traditional ones. Someone who can read one style may be unable to understand a text in the other style. See further our articles Traditional Chinese characters and Simplified Chinese characters.  --Lambiam 09:10, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the explanation Lambiam. I suspected this had something to do with Taiwan and the PRC, and this pretty much confirms it. For the article, I plan on simply listing the two and counting the two as distinct languages. Thanks a lot for this information. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:39, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Earliest known uses of "by suicide" as opposed to "committed suicide"
What are the earliest known examples of the use of this phrase? Was it commonly used prior to the 2010s? 49.149.134.114 (talk) 09:24, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The two phrases usage in the English corpus can be see Here in Google ngrams, and as can be seen, before about 1810 "by suicide" was actually more common. The phrase "committed suicide" has seen a downturn since 2012, but has not been overtaken by "by suicide" yet.  -- Jayron 32 13:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's probably because of a growing - and very much mistaken - belief that "committed" must refer to a crime or a sin. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:20, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note also that Jayron's comparison is what the OP literally asked about, but an arguably more relevant comparison would be with "died by suicide", the occurrence of which is pretty negligible before the year 2000. --Trovatore (talk) 22:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Good match. No idea why, this led me to a comparison of "by suicide" with "from suicide". Although the last sounds irreal to my ears they were following a similar trend durint the raring thirties (this term). I wonder which were the sentences. "At suicide" vs "attempt at suicide" plus "attempts at suicide" remains a bit low compared to it. --Askedonty (talk) 13:12, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The OED lists a large number of meanings for "commit". Group I is headed "to entrust, consign", group II is "to do something wrong, perpetrate", group III is "to join" (obsolete), group IV is "to involve, embroil" (obsolete), group V is "to pledge, dedicate, devote". I don't see any possible meaning of "commit suicide" other than one of those in group II, which contains the four meanings "9a. to carry out (a reprehensible act); to perpetrate a crime, sin, offence, etc", "9b. to make (an error, mistake, etc); to do (something foolish or careless), "10. to behave in a reprehensible manner (obsolete)", and "11. to do (something likened by the speaker to a crime or offence)". Does your very much mistaken comment mean you have seen a dictionary that lists a meaning of "commit" meaning to "perform an act", without negative connotations? CodeTalker (talk) 18:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Did you commit that entire definition to memory? -- Jayron 32 14:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The OED also lists usages such as "commit marriage", "commit battle", neither of which have a negative connotation. DuncanHill (talk) 18:39, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There is an argument, silly I think, that "commit suicide" is "stigmatizing" language. Bus stop (talk) 18:54, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * "Commit battle" is noted as "archaic", and "commit marriage" has the note "in later use frequently with humorous allusion to sense 9a". In any case, these are isolated phrases or idioms. They do actually list "commit suicide" as a separate phrase with the note "Historically, suicide was regarded as a crime in many societies". I'm not seeing strong evidence that "commit an act" does not generally have a negative connotation. CodeTalker (talk) 18:59, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Isn't there the implication of a bad outcome in the cessation of one's existence on this mortal coil? Bus stop (talk) 19:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Surely, the word "commit" in this context refers to the committing of a crime, which suicide was, in England and Wales, until the Suicide Act 1961? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The word "commit" is not a reference to the crime in those jurisdictions in which suicide is a crime. The word "commit" connotes the irreversibility of death. It is a commitment. Suicide is a commitment. One does not have the option of saying "Oops, on second thought..." Bus stop (talk) 19:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see an WP:RS etymology for that. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * If someone doesn't want to use the phrase "commit suicide" because they think it has a negative connotation then fine, they should use another. What I object to are 1) the false claim that "commit suicide" is necessarily stigmatising, and 2) the frankly horrible phrase "died by suicide". Say "killed himself", "slit his wrists", "threw himself under a bus" or whatever, just don't murder the English language in your campaign to make suicide acceptable. DuncanHill (talk) 19:10, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Murdering the English language is not bad. Bus stop (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's still a cr1me. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * As in so many other language-related politically-correct balderdash the ultimate aim is to control how other people speak. It would not be enough to say "killed himself", "slit his wrists", "threw himself under a bus". That will not suffice because that sidesteps the issue and fails to exercise control over other people. The aim here is to get you to say "died by suicide". These people should take up puppetry and ventriloquism. Bus stop (talk) 19:25, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, ventriloquism. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There is also the somewhat old-fashioned/poetic "died by his own hand" (or as I saw used in one instance, "killed by his own hand", which puts me in mind of Evil Dead II). Iapetus (talk) 10:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Or the even more poetic "laid violent hands on himself". DuncanHill (talk) 02:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's great. Bus stop (talk) 03:24, 12 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I've heard of people in prison having homosexuality committed upon them. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)