Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 July 5

= July 5 =

Is the word "exchange names" fits here?
Sentence: Robert and Sandy met together at a coffee shop, and they exchange names.

When I Google "exchange names", it gives me "telephone exchange" results. Rizosome (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)


 * It's sorta fine (should be "exchanged"), but "together" is superfluous. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Where did you see this? And it should either be "meet" + "exchange" or "met" + "exchanged" in order to keep the tense consistent. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)


 * If you're asking about the meaning of "exchange names" (which is two words), it presumably means they told each other their names.--Shantavira|feed me 07:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Basically, was reading "exchange" as a noun, but in that sentence it was a verb. Such Syntactic ambiguity is a common problem for ESL readers because English does not mark distinctions between nouns and verbs, or the grammatical specificity of either (as subject or object, for example) as clearly as do many other languages, so they can easily be confused or misread. This is one of the major contributors to the phenomenon of "crash blossom" newspaper headlines that additionally drop words to achieve more concision.
 * "Met together" is probably an attempt to overcome the ambiguousness of plain "met", which could mean either a deliberate or a chance encounter. "Met together", like the term "met up", implies that the meeting was deliberate and pre-arranged. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.163 (talk) 08:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, "get together" for a planned encounter sounds better (to me) than the pleonastic "meet together" – which IMO is still ambiguous, since it can also be used for a chance encounter.. Or use "agree to meet". --Lambiam 10:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd probably use met up in this case, but yeah, there's a bit of tense confusion going on. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 11:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "Met together" sounds like a bad translation to me, I find it hard to imagine a native saying it. DuncanHill (talk) 12:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * To me, the sentence (despite its problems) suggests that this was a chance meeting, as they exchanged names after they met. In most planned meetings, I would expect to know the name of the person I am meeting even if I am meeting them for the first time. --Khajidha (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The sentence reads like a line from a film synopsis (A Patch of Fog?). --Lambiam 10:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As an aside, the synopsis in that article read rather awkwardly. I have given it a once over, but it could probably still use a little polishing. --Khajidha (talk) 12:37, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

This line solved my problem: If you're asking about the meaning of "exchange names" (which is two words), it presumably means they told each other their names. Rizosome (talk) 01:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

"Heave away!"
What's the scope of meanings of "Heave away!"? It seems to me that in most contexts it's a rather archaic and unfriendly way to say "Go away!". But in "So, heave her up and away we'll go - Heave away, Santy Anno." it seems to be a happy 'command' to the ship to drive forth and gather pace. Is that correct, and what else can it mean? --KnightMove (talk) 11:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Heave has many meanings, in the instances you quote see this from the OED - Heave: "Nautical. To haul up or raise by means of a rope; and, more generally, to haul, pull, draw with a rope or cable; to haul a cable; to weigh (anchor); to unfurl (a flag or sail; also, to heave out); to cause (a ship) to move in some direction, as by hauling at a rope (e.g. at the anchor-cable when she is aground, or at the sail-ropes so as to set the sails to the wind)" and "To pull or haul (at a rope, etc.); to push (at the capstan so as to urge it round and haul in the cable); to move the ship in some direction by such means; of the ship, to move or turn in some direction" DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 5 July 2021 (UTC)


 * In the context of giving a command to commence an action, the phrase "X away" can simply mean "Start x-ing and continue to x until told otherwise or the task is completed." As DuncanHill's extract implies, heaving on ropes, etc. would have been a frequent task in the age of sail, and as "Heave!" was/is a good word to co-ordinate and encourage a team of people performing such tasks, it features frequently in sea shanties. "Heave to", on the other hand, means something different though still nautical. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.163 (talk) 18:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Sea shanties were work songs, getting everyone in a rhythm for pulling together on a rope or capstan, so you might be singing "Heave away! Heave away!" while hoisting sails for example. Alansplodge (talk) 19:18, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If you were seasick, I would say, "Heave away from me." Clarityfiend (talk) 04:10, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This song was one of the inspirations for my question. Who/what is the "rolling king" here, and what does it mean for him to "heave away"? --KnightMove (talk) 08:09, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "Rolling king" was originally "rollicking" (i.e. merry or drunk).
 * away says:
 * "10. On; in continuance; without intermission or delay. She's been in her room all day, working away at her computer.
 * "11. Without restraint. You've got questions? Ask away!
 * So the whole phrase means "pull on the rope without delay or restraint, you drunkards". Alansplodge (talk) 10:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary gives the sense of the adjective rollicking as "carefree, merry and boisterous". A colloquial meaning of the adjective rolling is "drunk (intoxicated from alcohol), staggering". --Lambiam 10:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. Last follow-up question is the following stanza of a version of Santy Anno:
 * When Zachary Taylor gained the day,
 * Heave away, Santy Anno,
 * He made poor Santy run away,
 * All on the plains of Mexico.
 * the "Heave away, Santy Anno" is to be interpreted as "Get lost, Santa Anna!" Right? --KnightMove (talk) 10:48, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I think it still means "pull on the rope". Sea shanties were work songs - the "heave away" part was a repeated refrain sung by everyone. Our Santianna article gives an alternative as "Heave and weigh Santiana" as in weigh anchor. Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Intelligence = information, news
I'm looking for the origin of this meaning. Is Intelligence meaning News / Information as in Intelligence Agency originally AE? Or it comes from BE ? Thank you. 2003:F5:6F18:900:9DA8:8E83:EEE8:1C06 (talk) 19:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC) Marco PB
 * Where did you see it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:37, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Etymonline.com gives it as attested in mid-15c., not sure what's the source for this bit. French seems to have some meanings involving "secrets", but probably nothing as clear as English (that may be diferent for older times, or if you ask someone who actually speaks French). Personuser (talk) 20:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Clarification: OP is probably referring to meaning 3 (and 4) as opposed to 1 (and 2) as numbered at wiktionary. The loosly related modern French use I was referring to is être d'intelligence. Personuser (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is it, thank you. In my background the standard meaning of intelligence is the ability or skill to solve problems, understand situations and foresee consequences. The meaning of collecting informations as in CIA (no implications) was not familiar to me and I had the impression it could be something special to AE. But I found also the reference to the mid-15c, so this usage definitely did not originate in the USA. 2003:F5:6F18:900:8DCF:B80D:B1E9:AFAF (talk) 14:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC) Marco PB
 * "The aungel Gabryel apperyd hym to, That hese wyff xulde conseyve he ȝaff hym intelligence"(7. meaning). Not quite the context I was expecting. Personuser (talk) 01:40, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Godefroy lists a meaning for Old French intelligence of "" ("Communication between people who communicate"). (Does the aungel Gabryel qualify as people?) --Lambiam 10:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * In this sense Italian has "intelligenza col nemico", that is "having agreements with the enemy", a form of trahison.
 * Thanks to everybody 2003:F5:6F18:900:8DCF:B80D:B1E9:AFAF (talk) 14:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC) Marco PB


 * I would read s'entendent as "understand each other". —Tamfang (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I would just point out additionally that when used to refer to information that may be politically or militarily useful, it is often abbreviated as intel, and means the same thing. See definition. Mathglot (talk) 16:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)