Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 June 10

= June 10 =

Meaning of "oldest"
The article about Mikhail Gorbachev says he is the oldest leader of the Soviet Union. As he was the last one, I understand this means "lived the longest". But "oldest" can also mean "born the earliest". Is there a way to distinguish between these? J I P &#124; Talk 01:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it is clear that it just means "lived the longest" and *no need* to distinguish it with "born the earliest" per your question --FMM-1992 (talk) 01:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * For verification: List of leaders of the Soviet Union, for curiosity: Bald–hairy (doesn't apply); most long-lived/longest-lived seem the most promising alternatives to me (not a native speaker); anyway Oldest people and probably other articles have the same problem/not a problem and similar solution may be applied Personuser (talk) 02:12, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Age is measured from the moment of origin (for humans, their birth) to some reference time. Reportedly, Methuselah died at the age of 969, so then, when he gave up the ghost, he was (still reportedly) pretty old. Yet, you cannot say, "Methuselah is the oldest biblical patriarch", because the use of the present tense sets the reference time to "now", and in this measure Enoch, having been born before Methuselah, would be older – but, more importantly, the convention in measuring age is that the entity whose age is being measured is still extant at the reference time. One can perhaps say, "Methuselah was the oldest biblical patriarch", the implication being that the reference time was the time of his death. So, for example, Ardi is perhaps the oldest hominid fossil ever found, and while one can say that Ardi was a female Ardipithecus ramidus who lived near the Awash River, one cannot say that Ardi was a very old female Ardipithecus ramidus who lived near the Awash River. But the Ardi fossil is still extant and today very old. In my opinion, the last surviving member of a set is necessarily also the oldest member, by dint of being the unique extant member at the reference time implied by "surviving". Perhaps – even likely – that is not what the author of the sentence meant to say, but then they should have found a different formulation.  --Lambiam 09:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Since all of the Biblical patriarchs are dead, "the oldest" one would be the one who reached the greatest age. In the case under discussion here "oldest leader of the Soviet Union" would seem most likely to mean "that person whose age during their rule was higher than the age of any other ruler during their rules". I'm sure that both the article and my explanation could be better phrased, though. --Khajidha (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * As with any categorical statement, you first need to define what you mean by oldest. I could read "the oldest Soviet leader" in two ways: 1) who was the oldest while they served in the office and 2) Who, having served in the office at any time, eventually lived to the oldest age.  At 90 years old today, Gorbachev only meets the second definition; he was only leader of the Soviet Union until 1991, at which time he was 60 years old; younger than several of the other people to have held that role.  Gorbachev's immediate predecessor, Konstantin Chernenko, was 74 as leader of the Soviet Union, Leonid Brezhnev served until he was 76, several others also served in to their 70s.  -- Jayron 32 16:32, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't use "oldest" for your second definition. That would be "longest lived". --Khajidha (talk) 16:33, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * William Ewart Gladstone is described in several reputable internet articles as "Britain's oldest prime minister",   meaning that he was the oldest to serve in that office (not the longest-lived who was James Callaghan).  Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Been thinking about this some more and realized there are three things that some people might get confused: oldest, longest lived, and eldest. For clarification I will use United States presidents,as I am more familiar with them than Russian/Soviet leaders.but the patterns still apply. 1) "Oldest president" - the one who attained the greatest age while in office. Currently, this is Joe Biden. 2) "Longest lived president" - the one who attained the greatest age before death, regardless of how long they had been out of office. Currently, this is Jimmy Carter. 3) "Eldest president" - the one who was born before all others. This is George Washington. --Khajidha (talk) 17:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Latin translation request (work related)
Hey language desk

My supervisor at work has a significant birthday coming up and we're working on getting a few things, and one of them requires a Latin translation.

So we all know the "Don't Forget - You're Here Forever" plaque from The Simpsons. It's one of those, the Latin being used to make it look profound and important. I know, this is how offices are, it's that kind of 9-5 office life.

I've done some Google-ing, because I didn't want to just come here cold. I've got phrases like "'nunquam obliviscere' and "hic in perpetuum" and ""usque in sempiternum", which I think is close to the right answer but not quite there yet.

So please, if I'm allowed, could I ask the language desk to help me and my supervisor a help, and confirm what the best translation would be? Many thanks x doktorb wordsdeeds 10:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess I never saw that episode of "The Simpsons" (not sure what message it's intended to convey). The first question when translating into Latin is whether it's addressed to a single person (tu, noli) or to multiple people (vos, nolite)... AnonMoos (talk) 12:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Maybe "Ne obliviscaris te hic in perpetuum esse"? (You don't really need the "esse" though.) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Of course that translation makes the choice to use singular. I think that "adesse" would be more in the spirit of Latin than "hic...esse". AnonMoos (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah that does sound better! By the way, the message in the Simpsons episode is that Homer quit his job and had to grovel to get it back and now his boss is trying to crush his spirit, but he covers up the letters on the sign with pictures of Maggie so it says "Do it for her". Adam Bishop (talk) 14:18, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * , here's the difference between perpetuum and sempiternum:
 * perpetuum is an adequate description of a finite being's experience of "forever" in this life. For example, God's laws given to Moses were "perpetual" for the Jews.
 * sempiternum describes God's eternity: without beginning, without end, unto the ages of ages. If you really want to go for hyperbole and a bit of a ridiculous edge, this is what I'd choose. It's not realistic, but it seems that the idea of the plaque is to be humorous? Elizium23 (talk) 13:26, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * sempiternum describes God's eternity: without beginning, without end, unto the ages of ages. If you really want to go for hyperbole and a bit of a ridiculous edge, this is what I'd choose. It's not realistic, but it seems that the idea of the plaque is to be humorous? Elizium23 (talk) 13:26, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * sempiternum describes God's eternity: without beginning, without end, unto the ages of ages. If you really want to go for hyperbole and a bit of a ridiculous edge, this is what I'd choose. It's not realistic, but it seems that the idea of the plaque is to be humorous? Elizium23 (talk) 13:26, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Is the plaque from The Simpsons some kind of play on memento mori? Personuser (talk) 14:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , I don't know - the clip is findable on YouTube, though it is a copyvio. Elizium23 (talk) 14:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you all so much. It is for a light hearted present so I know that the Latin doesn't need to be exactly perfect, but I'm also well aware that it's too complex a grammar for throwaway Google translate. I'll use your answers and responses and see how we ago. Thanks again x doktorb wordsdeeds 17:16, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * In English you can omit the conjunction "that" from "Don't Forget that You're Here Forever", but I don't think you can do the same in Latin. If you do, it seems these are unrelated sentences: "Don't forget! ... Oh, and, by the way, you're here forever." In Latin one can use a conjunction like ut or Late Latin quia, or use the accusativus cum infinitivo to indicate that which should not be forgotten. Also, "adesse" means "to be present", but not necessarily to be present here. "Be there" in "Be there or be square" can be translated as adeste. "Don't Forget That You Attend [Here] Forever" is not quite right, and I guess no word-by-word translation conveys the core message of being stuck. I'd go for a circumlocution: "Don't Forget That Your Place is Forever Here", or "noli oblivisci locum tuum semper hic esse". For an inscription, use majuscules: "NOLI OBLIVISCI LOCVM TVVM SEMPER HIC ESSE" (note the majuscule "V" instead of "U"). (Or substitute the synonym "AETERNO" for "SEMPER".) Bonus question: make a translation such that you can cover up parts to spell the message: "DO IT FOR HER" ("PRO EA FAC"). --Lambiam 19:58, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you too! doktorb wordsdeeds 20:38, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Lambiam -- I don't understand your point about the conjunction, since Adam Bishop used an accusative-with-infinitive construction (something you mentioned), which is very different from a second finite clause. My Latin dictionary says that obliviscor can take an ACI. Also "Hic sum" (with long I vowel) is a literalistic translation of "I'm here", but in many contexts, ancient Romans would more likely have said "Adsum"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:56, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * My translation also uses an ACI; I overlooked Adam Bishop's version. I think though that the infinitive in the ACI is mandatory, also for the copula esse. (Compare Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.) Adsum sounds to me like the response Present during a roll call. If ET had spoken Latin, they might have said "Hic demum adero". But the sense in the Simpsons plaque is not "You'll always be present". Disclosure: I am not a native Latin speaker. --Lambiam 08:40, 11 June 2021 (UTC)