Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 June 9

= June 9 =

It's all Greek to me
Hi all, I was randomly reading Rhodes, where this sentence occurs:
 * To this end they employed as leverage their economy and their excellent navy, which was manned by proverbially the finest sailors in the Mediterranean world: "If we have ten Rhodians, we have ten ships."

I have tracked this down to Pseudo-Diogenian, Ημέίς δέχα Ρόδιοι, δέχα νηές: επι τον αλαζονευομένον, in

Could someone please check my transcription for mistakes, and possibly make a literal translation? Cheers, >MinorProphet (talk) 03:50, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There are some flaws (χ/κ and diacritics), this is my attempt (based only on the linked edition): Ἡμεῖς δέκα Ῥόδιοι, δέκα νῆες: ἐπὶ τῶν ἀλαζονευομένων. A painfully litteral translation would be "To us ten Rodians, ten ships: by those who brag." I would still wait for a second opinion. It would also make sense to better check if there is a less fragmented source for this phrase. By the way, does anybody know of a relatively painless way to type Greek diacritics (I can switch to modern Greek keyboard, but that doesn't seem to help a lot)? Personuser (talk) 05:24, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Just below the wikitext edit window there is a dropdown menu with choices Insert / Wiki markup / Symbols / Latin / Greek / ... After selecting Greek, this section expands to a Greek smorgasbord menu, and you can insert or whatever diacritically challenged letter with just a single point and click.  --Lambiam 11:29, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the hint and the correction (I guess my Greek is more rusty than I thought). I also realized only later that the second part was the title/source. Personuser (talk) 14:56, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Ἡμεῖς is in the nominative case: "We [are] ten Rhodians, [we are] ten ships". --Lambiam 11:43, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for your helpful and learned replies. In addition, there are a number of refs in the notes on p. 254, which appear to confirm the quote and the Rhodians' nautical ability etc.: but I can't identify the second and third. Would anyone be able to help, please, just for my curiosity?
 * Apost. IX, 85. Arsen. 276. Adagium ex Hom. il. II, 653 sq. natum esse male cum Erasmo Schottus opinatur: ex Rhodiorum ingenio repetendum potius videtur: v. O. Muelleri Dorr. II, 413: adde, quod Rhodi machinarum bellicarum et armorium artificium egregie exercebatur: Diod. XX, 84. Strab. XIV, 2, 5 p. 65. Meursius de Rhodo I, c. 17 Opp. Omn. T. III, 725: succurrit denique explicationi nostrae aliud dictum proverbiale, quod a Rhodio gubernatore, ut narratur, exiit: etc. MinorProphet (talk) 14:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Colonial fort quote
Does the following quote by former Mogadishu governor Caroselli say that the colonial era forts undermentioned are Dhulbahante forts: "i Dulbohanta nella maggior parte si sono arresi agli inglesi c han loro consegnato ventisette garese case ricolme di fucili, munizioni e danaro" ? Heesxiisolehh (talk) 11:26, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a quote from his book Ferro e Fuoco in Somalia. I did not find an accessible version, but it seems that there are typos in the Italian text. I think c han should be c'han, and I have no idea what garese are; perhaps a local name for a (type of?) house. There is an Italian word garrese, but that does not make sense in the context. The quote says that the Dulbohanta (people) for the larger part have surrendered and have handed over twenty-seven garese houses. It does not refer to forts, unless the garese are fortified houses. "Garisa" is the name of a village in Somaliland. --Lambiam 12:36, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * "garesa" (plural "garese") must be a type of fortification in that region, see Treccani's search links for "garesa" and "garese". ---Sluzzelin talk  12:44, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * That strange "c" is really a defective "e", meaning "and" in English. "Garese" is indeed the plural of "garesa", meaning "fort". The "garese case" part doesn't sound quite right in Italian. It would make sense if it was: "han loro consegnato ventisette garese, case ricolme di fucili, munizioni e danaro" = They have handed out to them twentyseven 'garese', houses full of rifles, ammunitions and money". Or even if it was "case-garese" = "houses-forts". Here you can see the text in Google Books: https://books.google.it/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=n2wMAQAAIAAJ&dq=arresi+agli+inglesi+c+han+loro+consegnato+ventisette+garese&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22ventisette+garese%22 --95.246.53.249 (talk) 14:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * So if per "garese" is the plural of "garesa" meaning fort, the full translation would become both house and fort, as in "house-fort", as follows: "the Dhulbahante have handed out to them twenty seven 'house-forts' full of rifles, ammunitions and money", correct? Heesxiisolehh (talk) 16:50, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The text linked by the IP has some other oddities ("garese case) ricolme" and later "armti" instead of "armati"). I think the most probable meaning is either "forts, houses,etc..." or the house part clarifying what is a garesa ("forts (houses full of guns...)"). "Garesa" is described as a "forte" or even "castello" in Treccani (not quite a house), so I would propend for the first one. Garese being the plural of garesa and "c" being "e" is otherwise quite clear. If the money and ammunitions are different items in the list or something the houses were full of is also somewhat ambiguos due to the odd puctuation.Personuser (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There may be an opening parenthesis missing; perhaps the text was ... garese (case) ricolme di .... --Lambiam 20:07, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I found a pdf of the cited book by Caroselli. It states they got permission from Naples University L'Orientale, which arguably may have better copyright practices than Google, anyway should be good for checking translations. Page 272 (as reported by Sayid Maxamed Cabdulle Xasan?), in the end part. Here's my reading: "i Dulbohanta nella maggior parte si sono arresi agli inglesi e han loro consegnato ventisette garese (case) ricolme di fucili, munizioni e danaro". So: "... handed out to them twentyseven 'garesas' (houses) full of rifles, ammunitions and money". "Garesa" seems a pretty specific/unusual term even in Italian; they seem to have a defensive purpose (and probably a local/Somalian connotation), but translating them directly as "forts" may not be the best choise. It seems Lambiam was right, I missed the comment before answering, probably there's also some OCR going on. This way is also clear the money was in the garese/garesas (not sure what's more appropriate in English) and not an additional item. Personuser (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * This is etymological speculation on my part, but perhaps there is some distant relation to the English (from French) "garrison". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195) 2.122.0.58 (talk) 23:37, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually thought the same, but in a more direct/recent way (the "inglesi" are mentioned in the source and had some business in Somalia). Italian "guarnigione" is related to the same word in a strange way. For some more serious explanation it should be noted that "Garesa", capitalized as a proper noun, is/was used for the museum and the residence of the Governor. I'm not familiar with Somali language or other languages in the area or history and a lot of other stuff that should be considered for a more credible explanation. Personuser (talk) 01:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The term does not occur in the Somali Wikipedia or Wiktionary. The Garesa with a capital G is the building seen here, which may indeed by called a "castle" or a "fort". The best source at the moment is the Treccani use of garese, which implies that the term (locally) means "fort" or "fortress". It is easy to see how the common noun can become the proper noun for a particularly outstanding exemplar. The term is not found in the Somali Wikipedia or Wiktionary, and does not look like Arabic either; the phoneme does not occur in native Arabic words. If the Dhulbahante relinquished twenty-seven forts into the hands of the English, it is a reasonable conclusion that these were (at the time) Dhulbahante forts.  --Lambiam 11:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I see no basis for the qualification "towering" in the translation "towering forts". While the Mogadishu Garesa is imposing enough, I would not call it a towering building. --Lambiam 11:41, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Tribal signalling?
Is there a term for when people use pejorative language about someone else, but where they are, perhaps unintentionally or subconsciously, giving out information about their own identity (tribe). For example, when used pejoratively, describing someone or some people as "woke" or a "social justice warrior" or a "gammon" or a "wingnut". This signals not only that the other person or people are not members of my tribe, but also to listeners/readers who agree with the statement that they are members of my tribe. It goes further than an insult such as describing someone as "stupid" or "crazy" or "foolish". It isn't anything new: we've been doing it with pejorative racial terms which are far more obviously tribal in nature. -- Colin°Talk 13:56, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Shibboleth is the first term I think of.. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:22, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Somewhat analogous to Tell (poker) in the language realm. I'm not sure there's any specific linguistic term for this, but according to our "Cant" article, "The term argot is also used to refer to the informal specialized vocabulary from a particular field of study, occupation, or hobby"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:41, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The term "dog whistle" is used, particularly in the United States, to describe a related concept where the language used is superficially innocuous, but has an "in-group" meaning which may be pejorative about the in-group's opponents or targets. The article's See also section may give you some other leads. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.58 (talk) 23:30, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I followed the see also section and Loaded language has some of the qualities, in that the words are having a bigger effect that just mere insult. These suggestions all have some attribute of it, but none I think quite capture the whole concept. Perhaps it isn't enough of a real-world pattern for anyone to give it a specific label. -- Colin°Talk 07:32, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The hateful term nigger lover, designating a white person showing acceptance of black Americans as fellow human beings, implies that the one using the term is a virulent racist and does not tolerate different views in this respect among white folks. The term Judenfreund ("Jew friend") was used analogously in Nazi Germany, and commie lover, a term frequently used by McCarthy, is still regularly found today. These terms are slurs that imply a group standard and flag their users as (proudly) self-identifying with that standard, where the standard-conforming group members are seen as better than the non-standard-conforming group members. I haven't found a more specific term for these non-standard-conforming slurs. For a less hateful example, see landlubber. --Lambiam 10:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I think that in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s, "Compsymp" was more likely to be used than "Commie-lover". On Wikipedia, "Comsymp" redirects to article Fellow traveller, but that article doesn't discuss the word at all... AnonMoos (talk) 12:56, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Similar on the communist sympathizer one, pinko was a common term in the US for a long time. -- Jayron 32 17:20, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Also grockle. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.58 (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I've realised this is an aspect of "othering". Wikipedia's Other (philosophy) article touches on it, but is a bit of a rambling mess. There's more on "othering" at The Problem of Othering and the related Guardian article Us vs them: the sinister techniques of `Othering' - and how to avoid them. What is interesting in that article is that the "dog whistle" method, which is so subtle only those "in the know" spot it, is not essential. Populist politicians and media voices feel able to openly insult the "other". Using the language examples listed above wouldn't typically be acceptable in professional writing - it is offensive and deliberately so. Perhaps "derogatory othering" is close to definition? -- Colin°Talk 09:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


 * If you're referring to antagonism which is largely manufactured from top down by political leaders, then there's the book "Hate Spin: The Manufacture of Religious Offense and Its Threat to Democracy" by Cherian George... AnonMoos (talk) 20:40, 12 June 2021 (UTC)