Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 March 2

= March 2 =

Cyrillic italics
This image is apparently the logo of the Soviet Salyut space station program. I'm aware that т turns into т in italic script, but the word is not written in italics here. So what governs the decision to substitute normal т with its italic variant in upright text like this? Beorhtwulf (talk) 14:17, 2 March 2021 (UTC)


 * No, the T turns into m in lower-case script, not italics. All sorts of Cyrillic fonts based on lower-case script have the T looking like an M (a specific Bulgarian font was discussed here a few weeks ago). Note that the A is also rendered in lower-case script style in the logo. Xuxl (talk) 15:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No, that is not correct. The Т is written as т in normal lower-case, but as something like m in italics. There is, however, something called "unslanted italics", mostly used for effect, where the characteristics of italics are kept, but the slanting is reversed. In this case, the font does not have many interesting characteristics, so I do not really see the point, but who am I to teach the Russians. --T*U (talk) 15:30, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information, but then someone should consider whether edits are needed to our article on Te (Cyrillic), which currently says "as with most Cyrillic letters, the lowercase form is simply a smaller version of the uppercase." Beorhtwulf (talk) 15:32, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * See, for example, т. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 15:34, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The article on Te already mentioned the italic form but hopefully I have made it clearer by adding the image from Pp.paul's link. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:22, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Cursive was the word I was looking for in my answer above. Many examples of a T written as what looks like an "m" in the article Cyrillic script. Xuxl (talk) 18:24, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

OK, so the m-looking variant is related to cursive, and the text doesn't need to be slanted for it to be used. But still, is this commonly encountered? The logo in question isn't made to look like the text is handwritten, so is there any significance to the designer's choice of the cursive variant? Are a lot of logos like this? Beorhtwulf (talk) 10:22, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Quite similarly, several "upright" typefaces for the Latin script have a one-storey form ⟨⟩ derived from (slanted) chancery cursive, instead of the traditional two-storey form ⟨⟩ of humanist minuscule. Futura and Monaco, furthermore, have a one-storey form ⟨⟩ instead of the two-storey form ⟨⟩. Ultimately, the choice by the typeface designer of one form over the other is a matter of taste.  --Lambiam 11:00, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There may be some confusion here about terms. The Russian name for italics is "Курсив" (kursiv), as in quite a few other languages (like German "Kursive", Norwegian "kursiv", Albanian "kurziv", Finnish "kursiivi"), which is not the same as english "cursive". The term "cursive" would in these languages be called "handwritten", "written style" or similar. Italics are almost always slanted, except for effect. Cursives are usually slanted, but need not be. Printed cursive script is, however, characterised by linked characters, and will therefore necessarily look more like something handwritten. Italics are a typographical approximation of handwriting on the single letter level, where, in addition to the slanting, some letters are looking closer to handwritten forms, especially in lower case, like this table from Cyrillic script shows:
 * {| border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=1 style="padding:0 .5em .2em; border:1px solid #999; margin:1em 0;"


 * + align=bottom style="text-align:left; font-size:smaller; " |
 * - style="font-family:FreeSerif,Georgia,'Times New Roman','Nimbus Roman No9 L','Century Schoolbook L','Trebuchet MS','URW Bookman L','URW Chancery L','URW Palladio L',Teams,serif; font-size:large; text-align:center; "
 * а || б || в || г || д || е || ё || ж || з || и || й || к || л || м || н || о || п || р || с || т || у || ф || х || ц || ч || ш || щ || ъ || ы || ь || э || ю || я
 * - style="font-family:FreeSerif,Georgia,'Times New Roman','Nimbus Roman No9 L','Century Schoolbook L','Trebuchet MS','URW Bookman L','URW Chancery L','URW Palladio L',Teams,serif; font-size:large; text-align:center; "
 * а || б ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| в ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| г ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| д || е || ё || ж || з ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| и ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| й || к ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| л || м || н || о ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| п || р || с ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| т || у || ф || х ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| ц || ч ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| ш ||bgcolor="#BBBBFF"| щ || ъ || ы || ь || э || ю || я
 * }
 * In this case of Salyut, the letters do not have the characteristics of cursive writing, so I would call it unslanted italics (and a rather boring version as well), the reason for which seems rather obscure. And No, it is not very common, I am glad to say. --T*U (talk) 11:15, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Also, look at the first image in the article Bulgarian alphabet, where the phenomenon is much more pervasive. The upright forms derived from the cursive ones have become increasingly more common. Similarly, in some modern Hebrew-script upright typefaces, the originally cursive is used for the traditional ס.  --Lambiam 11:52, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * A closer look at the Salyut image reveals it's a user-produced SVG image derived from . The former's lettering, which is drawn using a large number of SVG paths, looks like it's been hand-coded; the latter is a JPEG image with smoother lettering (although it too shows "t" as an m-shape). Bazza (talk) 15:26, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * How did T become what looks like m in lower case? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * If you take the two little serifs at the end of the horizontal bar on a T, and extend them downward, you get something that looks M-like (note that the cyrillic M looks somewhat different, in both printed and cursive form, so there cannot be confusion). Xuxl (talk) 20:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * [[File:Cyrillic upright-cursive-n.svg]]
 * Note that in Cyrillic cursive the majuscule Т also has three legs; see the second line of the above image. --Lambiam 00:14, 10 March 2021 (UTC)