Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 May 6

= May 6 =

Gestures substituting for words
Is there a term for the use of handwaving and similar gestures to replace complex but contextually known concepts, e.g. in ? Thryduulf (talk) 14:11, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The article gesture suggests that "communicative gestures" or "active gestures" may be the standard terms. It also subdivides these into different types of communicative gestures, such as "symbolic/emblematic" for commonly understood gestures like waving for hello, and "lexical/iconic" for ones used during speech.  I think "lexical gesture" may be closest to capturing what you're describing.  -- Jayron 32 14:35, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Very similar answer here: Poking through google scholar I see linguist using the term “metaphoric gesture” in opposition to “iconic gesture”. See for example this paper which says Whereas iconics  convey  information  about spatial  relationships  or  concepts,  metaphorics  represent concepts  that  have  no  physical  form,  such  as  a  sweeping gesture accompanying “the property title is free and clear.” 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation samples of consonants
In pronunciation samples of consonants, such as this one, it seems that a consonant is always pronounced twice, in combination with a vowel (once before and once after). How is a learner supposed to use/interpret samples like that? Is the vowel involved the same both times a consonant is sounded out? What is/are the vowels? Thanks. --134.242.92.97 (talk) 21:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The vowel is always an Open front unrounded vowel, so in this sample the speaker is enunciating . In general, the realization of a phoneme may depend somewhat on adjacent phonemes; it would not have been amiss to also illustrate the sound in a final position. (The realization of any specific phoneme is also language-dependent and even speaker-dependent, so these samples provide only limited information. For example, Trevor Noah pronounces a word-final $\langlet\rangle$ rather like .) --Lambiam 08:05, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, many classes of consonants can't be effectively or correctly pronounced without vowels. While things like continuants can be said in isolation, most occlusives can only be said correctly in the context of vowels, especially voiced occlusives; "d" is basically impossible to say without at least a short vowel sound before or after it. -- Jayron 32 11:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this the same phenomenon as when Steve Higgins says "Jimmy Fallon-uh" or is that just a kind of "emphasis"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not sure. Different dialects and accents have different rules for how sounds work in context; and in addition every individual person has a different idiolect that makes their own speech patterns unique.  However, letters like "d" and "b" can't be pronounced unless either preceded by or followed by a vowel; it's not just a dialectal convention in this case, it's basically a physical impossibility.  Nasal consonants like "n" are different; while Wikipedia classifies them as occlusive, they can be said indefinitely, which makes them feel to me more like continuants.  -- Jayron 32 12:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that when I say "and" I'm putting an "uh" after it even if I don't hear it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Inevitably, unless you're eliding the 'd' completely and saying "an'", which is common, particularly in informal registers. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.135.95 (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's surely not correct: the "n" in "and" acts as a continuant, essentially like a vowel, and there's no "uh" needed after the "d". This is for native English speakers - speakers of Italian (standard language and some dialects) find it difficult to pronounce certain consonants at the ends of words without a following vowel, even when a vowel or continuant preceded the consonant. rossb (talk) 11:18, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree. It's not needed from a communicatory point of view, but I for one (being a native English speaker) find it impossible to sound the "-d'" without a following "-uh" (or rather "-əh") sound. It might usually go unnoticed by myself (because I'm not intending it) and be unnoticed and indeed inaudible to anyone not very close to me, but it's definitely there. When a language doesn't require, however slightly, certain sounds for meaning, they tend to escape notice and even be difficult to hear for its speakers (because of early neuroplasticity), but that doesn't mean they aren't occuring.
 * Please try it yourself, clearly sounding the 'd', and if you manage not to have even a slight following "-əh", please let me know how you manage it. I presume this is the 'consonant release' to which (certainly more of an expert on these matters than I) refers below. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.135.95 (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

There's the phenomenon of consonant release. As far as I can tell, we don't have an article on it, but we do have an article on its opposite, No audible release... AnonMoos (talk) 01:12, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * FWIW, it is actually possible to articulate [b], [d] and [g] without being sandwiched between two vowels (I can do them for ca. 400 ms with some discomfort), although this never happens in natural speech, and is not really helpful for illustrating these sounds (unless you want teach how to produce unreleased voiced stops—that's at least what I occasionally do when teaching Tagalog). –Austronesier (talk) 20:16, 8 May 2021 (UTC)