Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 November 2

= November 2 =

"Winning" an argument by action
What's that phrase for doing a controversial thing that's difficult if not impossible to undo, and so you win by default the argument of whether it should be done? —151.132.206.250 (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "Cutting the Gordian knot"? --~ Orangemike
 * Fait accompli? Iapetus (talk) 09:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * (OP at different location) That's the one! Thanks all! —96.8.24.95 (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "I rest my case" ? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:10, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Dialog doubt in Sling Blade
Doyle speaks about bible:

Doyle: I can't understand none of it.

What does this double negative sentence mean? Rizosome (talk) 01:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * We typically call this "non-standard English". Two negatives are still negative in many "non-standard" varieties of English (see Double negative). Here, in "standard" English, it simply means "I can't understand any of it". Adam Bishop (talk) 01:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Are you going to acknowledge Bishop's response, or are you going to plow ahead to the next thing? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

This Double negative solved my doubt. Rizosome (talk) 14:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Very good. And be aware that the double-negative is very common in English, despite being improper grammar. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I remember a wonderful triple-negative from a Western-film, must have been back in the 70's: “I won't sell no weapons to no injuns.” Not exactly "standard", but the meaning is certainly not lost. --T*U (talk) 13:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

What if double negatives are not side by side like this:


 * Karl: I don't think nothing bad oughta happen to children.

What does "don't think nothing" mean? Rizosome (talk) 01:58, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The same as "don't think anything". The "anything" goes with "bad". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was also a bit confused about the parsing of the sentence. "I don't think (that) anything bad ought to happen to children." 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Do you see a relevant difference in structure between Doyle's sentence and Karl's? —Tamfang (talk) 04:05, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for teaching me about double negatives. Rizosome (talk) 09:36, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The alphabet
What is the origin of the english alphabet and what is the basis for the letter arrangment? If it is derivative of another alphabet, what is the origin of same? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:CF50:91E0:E1E1:9A14:FAE7:A3F3 (talk) 02:54, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The modern English alphabet was derived (more like borrowed) from the Latin alphabet, which in turn descended from the Greek alphabet, which in turn descended from the Phoenician alphabet, which was most likely the first known such example of what we could call an "alphabet", instead of a logogram, which is what written Chinese and Egyptian hieroglyphics are considered. In fact, the word "alphabet" comes from a compound of the first two letters of the Greek alphabet: Alpha and Beta.
 * On a related side note, the old English alphabet was a set of runes collectively called Futhorc, until they were Christianised and adopted the Latin alphabet from that influence. "Old English" is otherwise known as "Anglo-Saxon". --72.234.12.37 (talk) 03:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has an article titled History of the alphabet, and then has additional links for you to follow on from there, such as History of the Latin script and English alphabet. -- Jayron 32 11:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * (ec) We have an article English alphabet, which explains it is a Latin alphabet. Our article Latin alphabet has extensive information on its history; even more is found in History of the Latin alphabet and the more general History of the alphabet. The current arrangement dates from Roman times; it was originally based on that of the Phoenician alphabet from which it descended, which has even older origins in the Proto-Sinaitic script: see . I'm not aware of a particular reason for the specific Phoenician order, also found in North Semitic abecedaries of the Ugaritic alphabet; someone, some thirty-five centuries ago, must have been the first to write out the collection of signs in some order, possibly not chosen for any specific reason, and others later just kept copying it. The letters  and  appear at the end of the Classical Latin alphabet, being late additions copied from the Greek alphabet to aid in the transcription of Greek words containing sounds not found in Latin. The article Latin script also mentions later developments, such as letter case – the Ancient Romans would not have recognized their letter  in the current minuscule  .  --Lambiam 11:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The reason for the order of the original version(s) of the alphabet was discussed a while back on an academic linguistics site, and apparently nobody knows. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.31 (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * As a digression, the Runic alphabet is clearly derived from one of the Mediterranean alphabets in the "Greco-Latin" family, but the letter order is completely different, as if the Norsemen picked up the writing system indirectly, instead of being taught the "correct" order by a teacher. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * 2600:1700:CF50:91E0:E1E1:9A14:FAE7:A3F3 -- See the tables at Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2012_March_8 ... AnonMoos (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

东南大学出版社
What does 东南大学出版社 mean? Google Translate says it means "FD" without explaining. It's the name of a book publishing company. 74.98.192.38 (talk) 20:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Seems to be the Southeast University Press. --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * (ec) It's "dōngnán dàxué chūbǎn shè", literally "South-East University Publishing House" or "Southeast University Press", apparently a publisher associated with Southeast University, Nanjing. No idea where the abbreviation "FD" comes from though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Bing Translate gets it right though. Alansplodge (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

German-speakers avoiding the word Nazi
I've noticed on the German Wikipedia that the word Nazi is rarely used when discussing Nazism, the Third Reich, etc. They prefer the initialism NS, or the full adjective Nationalsozialistisch. Is the word "Nazi" considered very informal in German? Why is it avoided in an encyclopedic context? Lantzy : Lantzy 22:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * It is colloquial, but not very informal. An issue may be that in German the word "Nazi" is purely a noun. In English you can use a noun as the head of an open (two-word) compound noun almost as if it is an adjective: London pub, landscape architect, plane crash. In German you can't do that; you either have to use a true adjective (Londoner Pub) or form a closed (one-word) compound (Landschaftsarchitekt, Flugzeugabsturz). So the word Nazi as a stand-alone word means a member of the NSDAP, and not more generally something associated with that party or its ideology and program. You can use Nazi-Ideology or Naziideologie'', written without a space, for "Nazi ideology". --Lambiam 23:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * In Swedish, as a comparison, there are the words "nazism", "nazist" (noun) and "nazistisk" (adjective). Theoretically, German should allow similar words, but it seems like they just didn't go that route. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:06, 3 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Did Germany ever use the term "Nazi" by itself, or is that more of a western media invention? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I heard that it was originally a slur picked up by the Left Wing opposition, or something like that. Apparently, it could be a nickname for Ignatz, and the Left Wing thought it was a sterotype name for the early disgruntled rural supporters of the party, or something to that extent. The Nazi party tried half-heartedly to pick up the term to neutralize it, but totalitarian fascists often have a slight problem with the necessary self-irony to pull off such stunts... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:51, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sort of interesting that (as I understand it) the Soviets also did not like to call them Nazis, lest people associate the latter with socialism. They preferred to call them (not totally inaccurately but somewhat imprecisely) "fascists".  Fascism sensu stricto was an Italian phenomenon.  The fascists and the Nazis had many points of commonality but also some rather marked differences, especially in regard to the Jews.  --Trovatore (talk) 03:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And in Polish, the words nazista (noun) and nazistowski (adjective) are used, but hitlerowiec (noun) and hitlerowski (adj.) are more common equivalents (although this seems to be changing among the younger generations, probably due to English-language influence). — Kpalion(talk) 10:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)


 * According to this article:
 * Members of the party referred to themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists), rarely as Nazis. The word “Nazi” was in use before the rise of the party as a colloquial and derogatory word for a backward peasant, an awkward and clumsy person. References to “Nazi Germany” and the “Nazi regime” were popularized by anti-Nazis and German exiles abroad.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 11:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)