Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 May 5

= May 5 =

Uzbek translation for Jeopardy! (franchise)
Dear Sirs, How can 'antiqa mantiq' be translated into English? Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 01:23, 5 May 2022 (UTC)


 * "Mantiq" might be a borrowing from an Arabic word meaning "eloquence, logic"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:14, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Is the translation given in Jeopardy! (franchise), "Say the Word", not correct? (I see you added that translation recently.) --Amble (talk) 06:15, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * We have wikt::mantiq in English Wiktionary. We don't have wikt:antiqa, but it is in Uzbek Wiktionary at antiqa. It seems to mean "antique", but also "unusual", "amazing", etc. --Amble (talk) 06:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * (ec) Antiqa is an adjective that can mean "ancient", but also "old-fashioned", "traditional". However, based on some uses found on the Web it can apparently also mean "strange", "weird", "astonishing". In the title of this book, Antiqa Mantiq probably means "good old-fashioned logic" (logical reasoning), but maybe "astonishing logic". The collocation may be existing Uzbek idiom that was appropriated for the quiz show title. The term mantiq can also just mean "speech", "utterance", which fits better in the context of Jeopardy!. --Lambiam 06:50, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems that we must interpret the particular meaning that is used in this context, and convert it into an equivalent phrase or 'title-line' in English. I have found three active Uzbek users, who I will now ping:
 * As an aside, a number of users in Category:User uz-N seemed to be spam or troll accounts with the same user page and no other edits.
 * Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 12:39, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi! "Antiqa mantiq" literally means creative or unusual logic. The thing is in Uzbek antiqa mantiq sounds great, kind of like a tongue twister. I don't know if there's an equivalent phrase in English. I hope it helps! N ataev  talk 12:46, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Great Scott, it worked! Now you need an English equivalent? I don't know what phrase could possibly fit, this will take some brainstorming, lateral thought, or even thinking outside the box. Card Zero  (talk) 13:19, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * So it seems that the idiom derives its popularity from the rhymelike antiq*antiq, and that the reuse for Jeopardy! is essentially a pun using the polysemy of mantiq (and perhaps also of antiqa). If this was a children's book, you'd need a translation that also reuses an ambiguous rhymelike (possibly alliterative) idiom and can vaguely mean "amazing utterance", something like Word of Wisdom. I see little value in providing a single literal translation such as "Creative Logic". This makes sense for the title of the book with logic puzzles for children linked to above, but not so much for the quiz show. --Lambiam 15:53, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "Quick Quip Quiz"... Maybe too quirky... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:08, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As N ataev  said that "Antiqa mantiq" is like a tongue twist and means excellent logic (clue). Here the main emphasis is on rhymelike words and below are some of my versions:
 * Chop logic (maybe)
 * Adroit point
 * True clue Kamron99 (talk) 20:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Quizzy (= Antiqa) Quip (≈ Mantiq). --Lambiam 21:16, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * True clue Kamron99 (talk) 20:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Quizzy (= Antiqa) Quip (≈ Mantiq). --Lambiam 21:16, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Nit-pick question about formatting and punctuation
There are times when I need to format a word or a phrase ... for example, with bold or underline or italics (being the main three ways). If that word or phrase has an "adjacent" punctuation or other symbol ... does that "extra" symbol ALSO get bolded, underlined, and/or italicized ... or is that "extra symbol" simply left alone? Let me think of a hypothetical example. I have a Word document ... it has the phrase "List of committee members present:" ... and then, in a table or a chart or a bullet list, I list all of the names of the present committee members. If I need to format the phrase "List of committee members present" ... with either a bold, or underline, or italic font ... does the "extra" / adjacent punctuation mark of the colon ALSO get bolded, underlined, and/or italicized? Or is that "extra symbol" (the colon) just listed in normal font, with no special format? This is just an example. Often, I find this "problem" happening when the "extra" material is parenthetical. For example: My Word document says ... "List of ingredients: (sold separately)" ... as a header for a list. If I need to format the "List of ingredients" with a bold, underline, or italics ... what do I do with the colon ... and what do I do with the entire parenthetical phrase, along with its parentheses symbols? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Traditionally, (most types of) punctuation have been typeset in the style of the preceding word—if a boldfaced or italic word was followed by a period, comma, colon, exclamation point, or similar, the period, comma, colon, exclamation point, or similar, was boldfaced or italicized as well. (The main exceptions were closing parentheses and em dashes.) This avoided the odd spacing, or lack of it, that would result if an italic word was followed, for instance, by a roman question mark. We explicitly don't do that on Wikipedia, though, and the convention seems to have fallen into desuetude elsewhere as well. I think you're probably OK if you use normal font for punctuation unless the punctuation is within an italicized or boldfaced passage. Deor (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. What would you do with my "ingredients sold separately" example?     Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:01, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, since you're asking what I would do, I'd put the colon after, rather than before, the parenthetical "sold separately" and boldface, italicize, or underscore the entire heading, including the parenthesis. There are other ways of dealing with it, of course, but headings are usually styled the same way throughout. (See the many tables in WP with headings like, for instance, "Distance (km)" rather than "Distance (km)".) Deor (talk) 18:20, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You don't need the colons at all. In your examples "List of committee members present:" and "List of ingredients: (sold separately)", delete the colons. What's more, you don't need the words "list of" either. Your headings should simply read "Committee members present" and "Ingredients (sold separately)". --Viennese Waltz 19:11, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Parent's co-parent, co-parent's offspring
By one's co-parent I mean, one's biological offspring's other biological parent. I suspect the answer is negative, but I just want to see if I will be surprised. HOTmag (talk) 17:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) The name for parent's spouse is step-parent. Without matrimony, is there a special name (whether in English or in any other language), also for parent's co-parent (i.e. for half-sibling's parent)?
 * 2) The name for spouse's offspring is step-offspring. Without matrimony, is there a special name (whether in English or in any other language), also for co-parent's offspring (i.e. for offspring's half-sibling)?
 * Would that be your brother from another mother? -- Jayron 32 18:05, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I suspect, that my brother from another mother, is not my parent's co-parent, nor my co-parent's offspring, but rather is my step half-brother. HOTmag (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If they are your step-brother, they share only a matrimonial relationship; they have no genetic connection to you. They were born to two people whom you have no close genetic relationship; but one of their parents married one of your parents.  If you share one parent, then you are half-brothers.  Also, explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process.  -- Jayron 32 18:49, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Parenthood does not necessarily involve matrimony. Nor does brotherhood. Nor does step half-brotherhood. Anyway, my original question was not about step half-brother, so it couldn't be about brother from another mother. HOTmag (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * When a person makes a joke, it is not meant to be taken as a serious answer to a question, so please, stop. -- Jayron 32 10:45, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I didn't notice any joke in your first sentence I was referring to. HOTmag (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * HOTmag --- in ordinary modern English, "parent-in-law" and "step-parent" have different meanings. A parent-in-law is the parent of one's spouse (e.g. one's wife's mother etc), while a "step-parent" is one's parent's spouse who is not one's parent (e.g. one's father's second wife etc).  Assuming that matrimony is involved, the parent of one's half-sibling would be a step-parent... AnonMoos (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Matrimony is not necessarily involved (I've just added that to my original question thanks to your comment). As for ordinary English, ok, so I delete the "parent-in-law" because its desired meaning is not in ordinary English. HOTmag (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no special name for people with whom you share no connections through some combination of matrimony or genetics. The unmarried mate of my parent is nothing to me, by relationship; if they have a child together, that child is my half-sibling (in older days my bastard-half-sibling if I were being rude, or my "natural"-half-sibling if I were being more diplomatic).  The unmarried mate of my parent does not get a new name because they had a child with my parent.  They are not related to me either because I share genetics with them (I don't) nor are they married to anyone in my family (they are not).  Thus, there is no term.  -- Jayron 32 18:45, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * On a related note, is there a term for a half-sibling's half-sibling? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:46, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You mean, to me? My half brother's other half brother could either be any one of three things 1) my full brother 2) my half brother or 3) nothing at all.  It depends on what the parentage of the people is.  For example, if I my parents have two sons, me and another, then one dies and the other remarries and has a third son, that third son is my half brother.  His other half brother is my full brother.  That's situation 1.  Let's say that my parents had me only, but one died.  Then my surviving parent married again, and then had another son.  Then one died again.  Then let's say that that parent remarried again and had a third son.  If I asked who that my half-brother's half-brother is in that case, he's also my half brother.  That's scenario 2.  Now, let's say that my parents had me, and got divorced.  Then they each remarried and had another son each.  Now, I have two half brothers, but each half brother's other half brother is of no relation to each other.  That's scenario 3.  -- Jayron 32 18:56, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sorta scenario three, I have a half-sibling's half-sibling, that I meet sometimes at family reunions. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:01, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I as well have a similarly convoluted family; given that 1) it is very large, with several multiple marriage via death and divorce and 2) my mom had two brothers that married a mother and daughter. Growing up in that situation, I got really good at figuring out familial relationships.  -- Jayron 32 19:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * My half-sibling's half-sibling, if not being myself nor my sibling nor my half-sibling, is necessarily my step-sibling (but not necessarily vice versa) - assuming that step-brotherhood does not need matrimony of anybody (but maybe I'm wrong and it does). Just as my sibling's sibling, if not being myself, is necessarily my sibling (but not necessarily vice versa). HOTmag (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Step-siblings DO need matrimony; look, picture your dad is fucking this woman, but he's not married to her. He's just fucking her.  If she already had a son, who is that son to you?  Nothing, she's just the son of the chick your dad is fucking.  If your dad MARRIES that chick, that son becomes your step brother.  But until there's a marriage involved, there's no step-anything.  Fucking people doesn't create family words.  Marriage and birth do.  -- Jayron 32 10:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As for step-siblings, I had already added a reservation: "assuming that step-brotherhood does not need matrimony of anybody". You claim this assumptoin is wrong. Ok, but still my full claim was correct, because of the reservation I'd added (including the parentheses following it). HOTmag (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You can't use that logic to make any form of statement. If you ever begin with "Assume that something that is completely wrong is not wrong at all..." then anything can follow. It doesn't make what follows correct. For example: Assume that everyone in the world is born from one and only one woman, then if my dad has a child, that child would be my sibling. Big deal. The original assumption is completely wrong, idiotic, and worthless. So, anything that follows is nonsense. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 19:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm a mathematician. As opposed to your claim, if "the original assumption is completely wrong" (as you write), then "anything that follows" (as you write) - is not "nonsense" (as you claim) - but rather is true (assuming that the full sentence has any meaning - which is the case in my full sentence). Anyway, When I wrote the assumption, I didn't know whether it's wrong, however I did know that the whole sentence (composed of the assumption and the consequence) is true - whether the assumption is true or false. HOTmag (talk) 19:56, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * From a logical point of view: If everyone's parents became one's parents when they were married to each other, then my half-sibling's half-sibling, if not being myself nor my sibling nor my half-sibling, is necessarily my step-sibling (but not necessarily vice versa). Just as my sibling's sibling, if not being myself, is necessarily my sibling (but not necessarily vice versa). HOTmag (talk) 17:31, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You claim that "There is no special name for people with whom you share no connections through some combination of matrimony or genetics". Not necessarily. My question has already mentioned the option of co-parents. My co-parent shares no genetics with me, nor have they ever been married to me, yet they do have a special name: They are my "co-parent". So I've asked, what about my parent's co-parent, and what about my co-parent's offspring? As I have already indicated, I suspect there is no special name for this kind of "relative", but I still want to see if I will be surprised, not necesarily for the English language. HOTmag (talk) 19:11, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Look, this is growing wearisome. No one has ever used a special word for the concept you're trying to find.  If you want to invent your own word, why don't you just do it.  -- Jayron 32 10:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in inventions - but rather in standard usage. As I have already indicated, I'm not asking about English alone - but rather about any language - even one only (it doesn't matter which one). I guess there isn't a term for this kind of relationship - in any language, but I still want to see if I will be surprised. HOTmag (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In English then, the unequivocal answer is "no". I have a passing familiarity with French and Spanish, and I am unaware of any such word in either of those languages.  I don't speak any of the other several thousand languages on Earth, so there remains a possibility of finding such an answer for other languages.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 13:54, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the information about French and Spanish. As I have already indicated, I still want to see if I will be surprised [as far as any other foreign language is concerned]. HOTmag (talk) 17:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)


 * My two sons are genetically half-brothers (different fathers). The elder one has a half-brother from his birth father's second marriage, and that half-brother has a half-brother from his birth mother's first marriage. My son has never met any of these people (he never even saw his birth father after the age of 7 months, and now he's dead), so the question of how to label them has never arisen. I suspect that if ever the need arose, it'd be "This is Bob. We're sort of related, but it's too hard to explain". --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:22, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * English has a lot of terms for many kinds of relationships between people who have never met, e.g. siblings (who may have never seen each other), and the like. Indeed, my brother is my parent's son - and I did meet my parent who did meet their son who is my brother, but the same is true for the relationships I'm asking about - i.e. about parent's co-parent and about co-parent's offspring: Indeed I have never met my parent's co-parent - but I did meet my parent - who did meet their co-parent, and indeed I have never met my co-parent's offspring - but I did meet my co-parent - who did meet their offspring. HOTmag (talk) 07:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you'll find a partial answer to your question in the lyrics of I'm My Own Grandpa. Mathglot (talk) 10:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * One's being one's grandpa (or rather step-grandpa), is based on marriage. My question, however, has nothing to do with any marriage (nor with any step-something), but rather with the concept of co-parent. By one's co-parent I mean, one's biological offspring's other biological parent. Marriage is not a factor here. HOTmag (talk) 10:42, 13 May 2022 (UTC)