Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 October 12

= October 12 =

"It was not until"
However, it was not until 1949 that the Dutch recognised Indonesia's sovereignty following an armed and diplomatic conflict between the two. this is the excerpt from english wikipedia page country indonesia. so what that it means for it was not until 1949? The concept of "Indonesia" as a nation-state emerged in the early 20th century, culminating later in the proclamation of Indonesian Independence in 1945. However, it was not until 1949 that the Dutch recognised Indonesia's sovereignty following an armed and diplomatic conflict between the two. the word not refers to the year 1945 in which dutch cannot recognize indonesia because of disagreement about independence. is the phrase it was not until an idiom? the word not and until has some unlikely connection and heres why. correct me if i am wrong. www.britannica.com/dictionary/eb/qa/sentences-that-begin-with-not-until&usg=AOvVaw3AWpxup2YvzS35Spu1URBg that website above refers to what are the example of it was not until usage of phrase. but not for what is the definition behind the phrase it was not until. who someone else typing the phrase it was not until? i dont know. somewhere probably in 2000s. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:DDD6:E279:3EAC:4E8C (talk) 04:45, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not really an idiom. Its plain meaning is reflected in the normal dictionary definitions of the words involved.  "Until" means "happened up to a certain point" and "not until" thus means "Did not happen up to a certain point".  For example "It was not until 8:00 that I arrived at work this morning" is perfectly natural, unidiomatic, English.  -- Jayron 32 10:57, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * why they someone writes/types word not before until? 2404:8000:1027:85F6:DDD6:E279:3EAC:4E8C (talk) 12:55, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "Not" is an English word of negation. It means the thing so described didn't happen.  "Not until" means the thing wasn't happening before the time described, and it was happening after the time described.  If the "not" wasn't there, the opposite would be true.  Contrast "It was not until 8:00 that I arrived at work" with "It was until 3:00 that I stayed at work".  The first means I WAS NOT at work prior to 8:00.  The second means I WAS at work prior to 3:00.  -- Jayron 32 14:33, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * the indonesia's independence was at 1945 year. it was not really independent until 1949 when dutch finally recognized it as a new state. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:68CF:D40C:4D78:80AE (talk) 14:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know if we should call it an idiom, but it is certainly a commonly used collocation. "It was not until T that X happened" means that X happened at time T and not earlier. The connotation is that this is rather late; X might well, perhaps ought to, have happened earlier – but it didn't. For example, "It was not until later when I moved to a bigger city for my high school education that I realized there was a lot more to the world." Before the move (T), the narrator did not realize there was more to the world than offered by the small Indian town where they grew up. It took a move to New Delhi for this to become clear to the narrator. --Lambiam 11:33, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, but an idiom is not merely a common phrase. It is a common phrase whose definition does not match the standard meanings of the words.  "It was not until..." is not an idiom because the plain, well-understood meaning of each word is sufficient to understand the phrase as a whole.  An idiom is something like "Bob's your uncle", where the meaning of the phrase as a whole has very little to do with the well-understood meaning of the individual words.  -- Jayron 32 11:36, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * But what is the literal meaning of "it was not until T that X happened"? Take the sentence "it was not yet night when they had finished eating", This means the same as "it is not true that it was already night when they had finished eating". It would thus seem that the literal meaning of "it was not until 1949 that the Dutch recognised Indonesia's sovereignty" is merely "it is not true that the Dutch recognised Indonesia's sovereignty before 1949". This misses both the implication that the Dutch recognised Indonesia's sovereignty in 1949, and the connotation that they unnecessarily and inappropriately delayed this. --Lambiam 12:08, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The literal meaning of the phrase is "Prior to 1949, the Dutch did not recognize Indonesia's sovereignty". Until always implies a time when a condition changes.  Not until means the condition so described changes its state from the negative to the positive.  That meaning is plain and obvious.  It's not merely that "It is not true" it is ALSO that "it became true at that point".  Until implies a duration which has come to an end.  "It was not until" means the duration of not happening came to an end.  In this case, the condition that wasn't happening was Dutch recognition.  Again, it feels like I am overexplaining what is a common and simple understanding of the English words in use here... -- Jayron 32 14:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I know what "it was not until" means; I think I explained it adequately in my first contribution in this thread. At issue is whether in this collocation the meaning of "not until" is simply a transparent compositional application of the meaning of "not" to the meaning of "until". If "until" implies the time the change happened, then taking "not until" literally would mean that the change did not happen before that time. This by itself does not imply that the change did happen at that time. The implication that the change did happen at that time can be achieved by moving "not" into the dependent clause so as to negate its verb phrase ("recognise Indonesia's sovereignty"), while promoting this clause to a main clause: "until 1949 the Dutch did not recognise Indonesia's sovereignty". The reverse transformation "  did not " into "it was not   did " is unusual, so apparently something special is going on here. --Lambiam 19:26, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * not until is an ironic phrase of not and until. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:68CF:D40C:4D78:80AE (talk) 14:40, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * the usage of a phrase "Not until" is rare. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:DDD6:E279:3EAC:4E8C (talk) 12:57, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It isn't rare at all. I use it regularly, and read it and hear it spoken regularly.  It's natural and well used in American English.  -- Jayron 32 14:26, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * sAME FOR bRITISH eNGLISH. It wasn't until I looked at what I'd typed that I realised I'd left caps-lock on. (Apologies.) Bazza (talk) 14:45, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * oh i barely know that the word not until is not idiomatic but a plausible phrase. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:DDD6:E279:3EAC:4E8C (talk) 12:56, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * For a reference, see Aspects of Modern English Usage: for advanced students P. 127:
 * 7. Not until - not before: 'Not until' and 'not before' are synonymous to convey that something does not happen before the time mentioned, but that it takes place any time afterwards.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 12:12, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It was not, until. not and until aren't combined into single phrase but separate word.
 * it was not until, means that dutch cannot recognize indonesia until the year 1949.
 * not before equals after
 * why it's a litotes? 2404:8000:1027:85F6:F44A:BF5:606B:B925 (talk) 14:14, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, we keep trying to explain it to you, and you keep ignoring our explanations. Let's try again.  "Not until" in this context means "Was not true before the time mentioned, and was true after the time mentioned."  The phrase "it was not until 1949 that the Dutch recognised Indonesia's sovereignty" means that between the dates of "The Big Bang" and "1949", the Dutch did not recognize Indonesian sovereignty, but between the dates of "1949" and ", 29 July 2024 (UTC)", they did.  What about that explanation is confusing to you?  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 12:28, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

A few questions
40bus (talk) 18:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  Is there any Germanic language which is a pro-drop language?
 * 2) Is there any Romance language with phonemic long vowels?
 * 3) Is there any language which makes phonemic constrast between voiced palatal approximant and voiced palatal fricative?
 * 4) Is there any language with phonemic voiceless vowels?
 * 2. Quebec French apparently distinguishes between /ɛ/ and /ɛː/. Quebec French phonology. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * 4. Voicelessness says "Contrastively voiceless vowels have been reported several times without ever being verified (L&M 1996:315)." 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:52, 12 October 2022 (UTC)


 * 40bus -- The Icelandic language certainly has the verb inflections to allow it to be pro-drop without much ambiguity, but looking through "Teach Yourself Icelandic" by P.J.T. Glendening (ISBN 0-340-05975-5) the pronouns are not omitted in the example sentences (except when an impersonal verb takes a dative experiencer object which occurs before the verb, in which case the verb has no preceding dummy subject pronoun). AnonMoos (talk) 04:28, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Scottish Gaelic distinguishes and, e.g. Eòin 'John'  vs. dheòin 'consent (lenited)' . Friulian is reported to contrast vowel length for all vowels except  and , which are always short. Likewise Megleno-Romanian is reported to contrast vowel length for all vowels except  and . —Mahāgaja · talk 07:57, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I found more Romance languages that (at least according to their Wikipedia articles) have contrastive vowel length for at least some vowels: Ligurian, Emilian, Franco-Provençal and Lombard. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:53, 16 October 2022 (UTC)


 * This discussion at StackExchange mentions some languages that have voiceless vowels, but only as allophones of phonemes that are only devoiced in certain environments. There does not appear to be any language that consistently uses a voiceless vowel phonemically.  Which is not to say it isn't a 'possibility', it's a valid thing that humans can do with their mouths, and as such, it's available as a phonemic element in language.  Many languages, including English, have voiceless continuants, think "H", and there's absolutely no reason that these can't be used phonemically as vowels; as noted they do appear as such as allophones.  Some varieties of English do this to reduced vowels between voiceless consonants; consider a word like "potato" where the first "o" can be realized as a voiceless continuant, not unlike "H", where /pəteɪtoʊ/ is actually realized as [phɾeɪɾoʊ], especially in my dialect (fairly close to General American). -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 11:52, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * do you really flap the first /t/ in potato? I (also a speaker of GenAm) would aspirate it: }. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:25, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do. My GenAm is colored by the fact that I grew up in the greater Boston area, and I have vestiges of Boston English that creep in.  See Here that discusses some of the variations on the word found in the region.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 14:41, 13 October 2022 (UTC)