Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 October 17

= October 17 =

Abram
I never have got it quite straight as to whether Abram/Avram/Abraham/Ibrahim were names taken from the word Hebrew/Ibri/Ivri. Also, i've heard that many biblical figures were personifications, eponyms, for tribes and groups of people. Would being an eponym explain Abram as originally Ibrim, where im means plural in Hebrew, so that Abram was a personification of a plural number of Ibri? Rich (talk) 20:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The word "Hebrew" in the Hebrew language is spelled `Ayin-Bet-Resh-Yod, where the letter `Ayin represents a voiced pharyngeal consonant. By contrast, the word "Abra(ha)m" is spelled 'Aleph-Bet-Resh-(He-)Mem, where the letter 'Aleph writes a glottal stop consonant.  These two sounds are sometimes transcribed into the Latin alphabet with slightly different-looking apostrophes, so that the difference between them can be easy to overlook in that form, but in most Semitic languages they're completely different consonants, and a word with a glottal stop is very rarely etymologically related to another word with a voiced pharyngeal in the same position.  (That's why the name 'Asherah -- beginning with 'Aleph -- is very unlikely to be related to the name `Ashtarot -- beginning with `Ayin.)  Also, "Ibrim" seems to be a variant of the Arabic version of the name of Abraham -- not Hebrew... AnonMoos (talk) 21:18, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * thanks Rich (talk) 01:06, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Using (unpointed) Hebrew script, Abram is, whereas Ibrim is written . Apart from the voicing difference in the initial glottals, the latter also has a yodh not found in the former. --Lambiam 10:47, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The "dh" in "Yodh" clashes with the bare "b" in "`Ibrim" (not sure why the transcription inconsistency). Also, a pharyngeal consonant is not glottal (though pharyngeals and glottals can be grouped together as "guttural" consonants in some contexts)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The "dh" is part of the English name of the Hebrew-script letter and has nothing to do with its phonemic realization. Hajvery University Quoting, "ʿayin has traditionally been described as a voiced pharyngeal fricative . However, this may be imprecise. Although a pharyngeal fricative has occasionally been observed for ʿayin in Arabic and so may occur in Hebrew as well, the sound is more commonly epiglottal ,[5] and may also be a pharyngealized glottal stop ."  --Lambiam 07:02, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that's not the case. A variety of transcriptions can be used for letter names (where alternatives are possible) according to circumstances, and it's by no means always the case that the name of the tenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is transcribed with an "h" in English.  And the pharyngeal place of articulation is relatively near the glottal place of articulation, and connected with it in some physiological/anatomical ways, but a pharyngeal consonant is NOT a glottal sound according to the ordinary accepted common meaning of those words in linguistics. AnonMoos (talk) 21:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, the term "yod" is a more common transcription of the Hebrew name ; I just used the term "yodh" to link to the Wikipedia article on the letter, since  is a disambiguation page. But if your issue is that I used "yodh" instead of "yod", I do not understand the clash with a bare "b"; I did not give any other letter names, and no one would write "bhet". The transcription "beth" is quite common, but then the remark should have been about a bare "t". I somehow cannot shake of the idea that a pharyngealized glottal stop is a glottal sound.  --Lambiam 09:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The name of the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet is never transcribed with "bh" because the Hebrew sound change of "spirantization" (i.e. converting a stop to a fricative) never happens at the beginning of a phonological word. I don't want to be excessively pedantic about it, but between "`Ibrim" and "yodh" there's an inconsistency in the transcription of the results of spirantization which is obvious to someone familiar with Biblical Hebrew... AnonMoos (talk) 21:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Now I get what you meant; the issue was with the transcription "Ibrim", not "Bet". I first wrote "Ivrim" but changed it to "Ibrim" to more closely match the traditional spelling of the biblical name "Abram". --Lambiam 12:35, 21 October 2022 (UTC)


 * There is a Biblical figure, Eber, who can be taken as the eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews. However, the text itself doesn't make this connection. --Amble (talk) 04:05, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Possibly relevant?The wikipedia article Abiram says "The name Abram is thought to be the same name, etymologically; the name is attested in a 24th-century Babylonian form." But the Wikipedia article on Babylon says Babylon didn't really get going until many centuries later than the 24th century bce, so I'm wondering about that...The footnote for the claim links the Jewish Encyclopedia volume 1, but i couldn't find anything about the names Abram, Abraham, or Abiram in 24th century in that encyclopedia.Rich (talk) 12:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * @Richard L. Peterson, it's in the etymology section for the Abraham entry - "appears as a personal name in Babylonia in the time of Apil-Sin". Babylon was almost certainly in existence at the date given (2320 BC), but that date doesn't match the reign of Apil-Sin. There is a further reference attached to that bit. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 18:41, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for finding that..the encyclopedia writer goes on to indicate, probably incorrectly, that Hammurabi lived around 2300 bce, when the encyclopedia says "If ....(Amraphel) be Hammurabi, then Abraham's date is about 2300."Rich (talk) 02:07, 23 October 2022 (UTC)