Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 September 15

= September 15 =

Why does English not use K?
Why does English use C instead of K before A, O, U or any other consonant than N in both native Germanic words and words inherited from French, Latin and Greek? For example, why it is can, cat, come, calendar, consonant, coffee, collect, connect, click, cool and active, reaction, statistics instead of kan, kat, kome, kalendar, konsonant, koffee, kollekt, konnekt, klick, kool and aktive, reaktion, statistiks? 40bus (talk) 07:00, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * For starters, here's a discussion on StackExchange. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 08:19, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The simplification referred to at the StackExchange discussion only occurred in later (generally spontaneous) spelling reforms. In Old High German one could write cunta, which became kunt in Middle High German. In Middle Dutch we find coe for the animal whose name is now written as koe. So perhaps the question is, why did English resist this orthographic change? --Lambiam 11:24, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Likely because of the influence of French, which tends to use "C". Remember that the influence of Norman French on English was profound; it was the intermingling of Norman French and Anglo-Saxon which evolved into the modern language we call English, and the fact that a form of French was a prestige language for centuries would have had a profound impact on orthography.  -- Jayron 32 12:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * English could do a spelling reform after which K would be used for [k] sound in all positions and C would insted be used for [ʃ] sound. This userbox by me says:

and I hope that this spelling said in this box will become English spelling someday. --40bus (talk) 10:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * 40bus -- Such an orthography would obscure the connections between certain morphologically related words, such as "electric" vs. "electricity" etc.  (If I were able to suggest minor touchups to current English spelling for consistency and ease of learning, that would not be one of my high priorities.)  Also, the written symbol "j" writing a consonantal "y" sound, is the single feature of the International Phonetic Alphabet which English-speakers most often dislike (it's part of why the IPA is rarely used in non-technical U.S. dictionaries).  The Africa Alphabet was invented for the specific purpose of having a quasi-IPA without the obnoxious "j"/[j] connection... AnonMoos (talk) 22:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * And why English-speakers hate using $⟨j⟩$ for [] sound? English is only Germanic language which does not use $⟨j⟩$ for [] sound. I think that English should also use $⟨j⟩$ for [] sound. --40bus (talk) 09:53, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe for the same reason French "hates" that German pronunciation of "j"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:30, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Although the Africa Alphabet seems to contain both the letters j/J and ʒ/Ʒ. Since the IPA equivalents aren't given in the article, it's a bit unclear of which actual sounds the glyphs are representing. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:52, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * P.S. In Old English, the letters þ and ð did not write separate sounds. The convention that þ writes a voiceless sound and ð a voiced sound is a refinement of Icelandic writing; it did not exist in Old English.  Also, Old English Ȝ was just a form of "G" in insular script; it's not too clear what sound value it should have if added to modern English spelling (the similar modern phonetic alphabet symbol is a modified form of "Z",  and so quite different in origin from the Old English letter, though very similar in shape)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * A major problem for any English "phonetic" spelling reform is the existence of many different dialects, each with their own pronunciation. Some dialect would have to be chosen as the reference for phonetic spelling, and other dialects could find the reformed spelling as bad as, or worse, than the current situation as far as spelling not representing pronunciation. And new generations would have to either learn both spellings, or be unable to easily read the vast corpus of existing English texts. CodeTalker (talk) 16:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * My second and third languages were Esperanto and Latin, so I cannot join you in calling ⟨j⟩ for /j/ obnoxious! —Tamfang (talk) 05:09, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Tamfang -- It's not generally obnoxious in a global context, of course, and trained academic linguists are quite accustomed to it, but in the context of an English-language speaker (who is not a linguist) trying to deal with transcriptions of English, it can be an annoying obstacle (it's the main IPA symbol which looks like an ordinary lowercase letter of the Latin alphabet, but which has a strongly diverging sound value from anything found in ordinary English orthography). As I said, publishers of American non-technically-linguistic dictionaries know better than to try the patience of the intended users of their dictionaries with such a transcription feature... AnonMoos (talk) 20:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * My first and second languages were Swedish and Norwegian. Anyway, from IPA's standpoint, using 'j' for /j/ and 'y' for /y/ makes a lot of sense. The English j-sound is an affricate, so it'd require two characters, anyway. The bigger languages using 'j' as /ʒ/ might be French, Portuguese and Turkish. (The glyph ʒ is derived from z and not j, though.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:46, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Wakuran -- It's fine in a broader global perspective, but it can be a stumbling block when a non-specialist English speaker is trying to understand transcriptions of English, and it's a significant factor in why dictionaries of English published in the United States rarely use IPA... AnonMoos (talk) 20:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC)


 * 40bus -- Etruscan had no distinction between voiced and voiceless stops, so the Greek letters Gamma, Kappa, and (archaic) Qoppa could all be used to write a [k] sound. In an early form of Latin, Gamma (which evolved into the Roman letter "C") was used to write [k] before i and e vowels, "K" before a vowels, and "Q" before u vowels.  In Classical Latin, "K" was only used in a few words, such as "Kalendae".  In Old English, the letter "C" was almost always used ("K" and "Q" were rare).  In Middle English, English spelling habits were somewhat influenced by French, as has been said... AnonMoos (talk) 23:44, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, Middle Welsh used 'k', but Modern Welsh does not. Our article Welsh orthography says that this is because the major printed texts were printed by English printers, who didn't have many 'k' sorts in their cases. --ColinFine (talk) 18:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think French influence is the reason English prefers $⟨c⟩$ to $⟨k⟩$; after all, Old English (pre-Norman Conquest) used $⟨c⟩$ for both and  and barely used $⟨k⟩$ at all. If anything, it was the French who introduced $⟨k⟩$ to English. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:45, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * And why English writes Celtic and not Keltic, despite [k] sound in this word is before [e] and thus should be written with $⟨k⟩$. --40bus (talk) 09:26, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe for the same reason Brits pronounce "gaol" like "jail"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:30, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The Scots pronounce Celtic Football Club in accordance with the general rule outlined by 40bus and the English follow on. 2A00:23C3:9900:9401:8073:C144:2B11:6CDD (talk) 13:36, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * As with the Boston Celtics. According to EO, "Celt" is sometimes spelled "Kelt". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:12, 19 September 2022 (UTC)