Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 September 27

= September 27 =

Letter names
40bus (talk) 06:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Is there any language where name of letter V is "ev" rather than "ve", like name of letter F? The sounds [v] and [ʋ] are close to sound [f], so why does not any language say "ev"?
 * 2) Is there any language where name of letter Z is "ez" rather than "ze", like name of letter S?


 * The origin of the Latin letter names was that vowels were pronounced as themselves ([a], [e], [i], [o], [u]); fricatives, nasals, and liquids were originally pronounced as syllabic ([f], [s], [l], [m], [n], [r], [ks]) but later had an "e" prefixed; while other consonants generally had an "e" suffixed ([be], [ke], [de], [ge], [pe], [te]). However, "K" and "Q", which were restricted to occurring before "A" and "V" respectively, had the names [ka] and [ku] accordingly.  "Y" and "Z" were later additions to the alphabet, and fell outside this system of letter names ("Z" retaining its Greek name zeta), while "J" and "U" were not separate letters until the 17th century or later, of course.  "W" was a medieval addition (originally a VV ligature).  The letter "H" would be predicted to have the name [he] under this system, but it may have been [ha] instead, and after the [h] sound disappeared in vulgar Latin there were a variety of expedients used in different languages to give the letter a distinctive-sounding name.
 * In a number of languages, the letter "Z" does not write a [z] sound and/or Final-obstruent devoicing occurs, which would work against the analogies you propose... AnonMoos (talk) 10:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * When does "r" sound like "f"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:23, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Who said it did? Or is this a riddle? —Mahāgaja · talk 14:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The OP did, but then changed it to something that looks like the Greek letter "nu". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:08, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The OP is using IPA symbols, which is the only reasonable way to discuss pronunciation. The symbol that "looks like the Greek letter nu" represents the Voiced labiodental approximant. CodeTalker (talk) 17:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * There should be a disclaimer at the top of this page that a Ph.D. in linguistics is a requirement. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:27, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I try to AGF with you, Bugs, but come on. How many years have you been heckling WP:RD/L without knowing about one of the field's basic tools? —Tamfang (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * One interesting facet of International Phonetic Alphabet is who doesn't use it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:05, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Thus the letters whose names begin with "e" are closed class, and no language has more than F, L, M, N, R, S and X beginning with "e". And why these letters in Turkish are "fe", "le", "me", "ne", "re" and "se", i.e. why "e" is in the end and not in beginning? --40bus (talk) 13:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Probably because open syllables are less marked than closed syllables. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Tifinagh has "yaf" and "yav", "yas" and "yaz". It's not a Latin alphabet, so the letter forms don't look like English V, F, and Z. --Amble (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Not so. Welsh has èc, èch, èdd, èf, èff, èg, èng, èl, èll, èm, èn, èr, ès, èth. It uses this form for all letters which denote continuants (liquids, nasals, fricatives) except 'ph', which has the same sound (/f/) as 'ff', but is used almost exclusively for when the sound /p/ is subject to aspirate mutation. The other aspirates 'th' and 'ch' are called 'eth' and 'ech'. On the other hand, 'c' and 'g' uniquely among the plosives, have this form. ColinFine (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The Turkish alphabet was introduced in 1928. Before that date, Latin letters, found only in texts in other languages, had no established Turkish names. So there was no historic baggage. Curiously, though, he and ke have alternatives ha/haş and ka, which can only be explained as loans from some other language – for haş probably from French ache but with the h unmuted. --Lambiam 23:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Spanish has eñe and, in Spain, uve and uve doble.--Error (talk) 15:38, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Congress of priors and discretions
Augustyn Kordecki has a sentence "At the congress of priors and discretions, convened on February 15, 1640, by the then General Father Mikołaj Staszewski, OSPPE, to Jasna Góra, he was elected a representative of the Polish province in Rome for the revision of the monastic constitutions", which seems to be a translation of "Na zjeździe przeorów i dyskretów, zwołanym 15 lutego 1640 przez ówczesnego generała o. Mikołaja Staszewskiego OSPPE na Jasną Górę, obrano go przedstawicielem prowincji polskiej w Rzymie do rewizji konstytucji zakonnych" from pl:Augustyn Kordecki. What is a congress of priors and discretions and is there a better translation? TSventon (talk) 08:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)


 * SOED (1993) has: your discretion: a title of respect to a bishop (or nobleman) -- Verbarson talkedits 09:47, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Discretions" is certainly a mistranslation. I've found a source in Polish discussing the feminine form, "dyskretka", which refers to a member of a provincial or regional council of a particular female institute of consecrated life. It cites a Polish encyclopedia of monastic terminology (Daniluk M., Klauza K., 1994, Podręczna encyklopedia Instytutów Życia Konsekrowanego), which defines "dyskret" as "a monk who has a voice in a chapter". It also says that such members were required to be discreet about the proceedings, hence the name. The English equivalent appears to be "discrete", as shown by this Google search. Hence, "At the congress of priors and discretes..." would be likely a better a translation. — Kpalion(talk) 21:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * For the meaning of prior, see our article Prior. Our article Augustyn Kordecki opens with the statement that he was "a prior of the Jasna Góra Monastery, Poland". In the context, a congress is a formal meeting of representatives of various groups with the power to take collective decisions, such as adopting resolutions. --Lambiam 22:43, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you all, especially Kpalion for updating the article. TSventon (talk) 00:00, 30 September 2022 (UTC)