Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 April 1

= April 1 =

Grand prixs
What are the rules, in English texts, for pluralising French words ending in -x, such as prix, which in French is its own plural?

Most would say "a grand /pree/", but "I've been to many grand /preez/". I suppose this would be spelt "grand prixs". Purists might write "I've been to many grands prix", where the plural ending is attached to the adjective but not to the noun. However, I suspect the population of language purists and that of motor heads have minimal intersection. So it's back to "grand prixs". I've never seen this written anywhere, so is it considered an ok spelling? -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Instinctively I'd think "grand prixes" but I've never seen it written anywhere either. Either that or "grand prixen". 98.116.249.122 (talk) 02:15, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at that, I'd be wanting to say /priksəz/. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:10, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Grands prix seems usual, and is supported by OED and Chambers. DuncanHill (talk) 03:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It depends on how assimilated the word has become. If you feel that "grand prix" retains a distinct French tinge, use "grands prix". If you feel it has been fully assimilated, I would suggest "grand prixs".--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 03:25, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As an English-speaking motor-racing fan (though only via TV/ online videos and written reports, not as an attendee) I've only ever encountered 'grands prix' or sometimes 'grands prixes' used by journalists, etc., writing in English. When speaking the French conventions are usually followed (European motor racing is conscious of its French origins), so distinctions are heard between grand/"gron" and grands/"grond", and between prix/"pree" and Prixes/"preez" (with apologies to Francophones). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195) 176.249.31.43 (talk) 07:13, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * But if you say "preez", why would you write "prixes"? What's that e doing in there? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Because "prixs" looks silly. As learners discover to their dismay, English pronunciation and spelling often have only a tenuous connection. And who cares if it used to be a French word anyway? We've been mangling their language for our own use since 1066. -- Verbarson talkedits 23:34, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That's what I was getting at in my original question. A word ending in -xs does look weird, which probably explains why I've never seen "prixs" in print. But I'm still more comfortable with that than "prixes", which is very remote from its pronunciation preez. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:31, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of grand prixs in print: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22grand+prixs%22&tbm=bks 82.166.199.42 (talk) 05:47, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I've led a sheltered life and don't get out much. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:33, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The singular grand prix and the plural grands prix have identical French pronunciations: . --Lambiam 18:47, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

p, pi in Italian
How do Italian scientists distinguish, in speech, between the letters p and &pi; ? —Tamfang (talk) 05:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The Italian Wikipedia calls the number &pi; it:Pi greco. Burzuchius (talk) 07:09, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * —Tamfang (talk) 05:01, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Judaeo-Portuguese
In Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman (O Americano, Outra Vez), there is this passage:

"On the plane to Brazil I started out sitting next to a guy from Colombia who spoke only Spanish: so I wouldn't talk to him because I didn't want to get confused again. But sitting in front of me were two guys who were talking Portuguese. I had never heard real Portuguese; I had only had this teacher who had talked very slowly and clearly. So here are these two guys talking a blue streak, brrrrrrra-ta brrrrrrr-a-ta, and I can't even hear the word for 'I,' or the word for 'the,' or anything.

Finally, when we made a refueling stop in Trinidad, I went up to the two fellas and said very slowly in Portuguese, or what I thought was Portuguese, 'Excuse me. . . can you understand. . . what I am saying to you now?'

'Pois não, porque não?' ' Sure, why not?' they replied.

So I explained as best I could that I had been learning Portuguese for some months now, but I had never heard it spoken in conversation, and I was listening to them on the airplane, but couldn't understand a word they were saying.

'Oh,' they said with a laugh, 'Não e Portugues! E Ladão! Judeo!' What they were speaking was to Portuguese as Yiddish is to German, so you can imagine a guy who's been studying German sitting behind two guys talking Yiddish, trying to figure out what's the matter. E Ladão! It's obviously German, but it doesn't work. He must not have learned German very well. Judeo!"

However, our article on Judaeo-Portuguese claims that it is extinct, the Portuguese Wikipedia article pt:Judeu-português indicates that that happened before Feynman was born, and pt:Ladão is on the mythological character Λάδων. So, is that true, and if so, what was Feynman hearing? Double sharp (talk) 06:33, 1 April 2023 (UTC)


 * List_of_Jewish_diaspora_languages says it's "almost extinct", but no citation. — kwami (talk) 10:47, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem, though, is that if it were that distinct, we wouldn't have a debate over whether it was a distinct language or dialect, or just Portuguese written in Hebrew script and with some Hebrew words sprinkled in.
 * More likely, it was Ladino, which was spoken in South America. There were Jewish settlements in Brazil. Presumably if Ladino had survived in Brazil that long, it would've take on a Brazilian accent. — kwami (talk) 10:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems like the most plausible explanation. Thanks!
 * Do you know how long Ladino survived in South America? Our article only says it was formerly spoken there. (This was apparently from Feynman's first trip to Brazil, so 1949.) Double sharp (talk) 11:08, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, the WP-pt article says that a few Ladino speakers migrated to Brazil after WWII, esp. Moroccans moving to Belém. So presumably it hadn't survived from the colonies in the 17th century, and there was no time for the new immigrants to assimilate to Portuguese phonetically. But it also says that Moroccan Ladino was the variety most heavily influenced by Arabic, and was "visibly different" from other Ladino (Haketía dialect, a.k.a. Western Ladino). I can imagine that Feymann might mistake Ladino with a Maghrebian accent for Portuguese, without being able to understand anything. Back before I knew any French, when I heard Maghrebian Arabic I could've sworn it was French, and it would've sounded closer to Portuguese than to Spanish. — kwami (talk) 11:15, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, our article on Haketia claims that it's spoken in Israel and Brazil, citing Cunha (2009, 2012) for Brazil. — kwami (talk) 11:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we have a plausible identification then. Thanks for clearing this up, it was a mystery for me for a while. :) Double sharp (talk) 15:41, 1 April 2023 (UTC)