Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 April 22

= April 22 =

Questions
--40bus (talk) 17:57, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Why so few languages have C.V split, when consonant-final (closed) syllables are followed by vowel-initial (onsetless) syllables? Why nearly all languages syllabify CVCV as CV.CV and not CVC.V? Are there languages where C.V split is common?
 * 2) Are there any words in English where letter H is pronounced at the end of word?
 * 3) Why does Spanish pronounce letter S as voiced /z/ between vowels and use $⟨ss⟩$ for /s/ sound there? Why does Spanish pronounce S as voiceless in this enviroment, unlike e.g. Portuguese?
 * 4) Why do so few languages have two low vowels?


 * CV is the one syllable type which exists in all languages whatsoever. English [h] is famously in complementary distribution with [ŋ], so no.  And there's less room at the bottom of the vowel triangle than at the top (as I said in one of my past answers). AnonMoos (talk) 20:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Are there any languages that disallow CV syllables? --40bus (talk) 15:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Some languages place contextual restrictions on CV syllables, but CV is the only syllable type guaranteed to be found in every language (as I said). If intervocalic consonants following a stressed "checked" vowel (such as the [k] in "backer") are considered ambisyllabic (which I consider to be the most sensible analysis), then English places contextual restrictions on CV syllables... AnonMoos (talk) 21:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It has been argued that the phonotactics of Arrernte does not allow CV syllables, although this appears to require a specific analysis of words that on the surface appear to be exceptions, such as ye and kele. --Lambiam 21:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The question about Spanish contradicts itself. But remember what you have been told about "why" questions.  Also, remember what you have been told about "why" questions, and what you have been told about "why" questions. —Tamfang (talk) 21:18, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The premise of question 3 is wrong. Spanish $⟨s⟩$ is between vowels, as in casa . It's Portuguese where single $⟨s⟩$ between vowels is  (e.g. casa ) and double $⟨ss⟩$ is  (e.g. cassa ). Spanish doesn't have  as a phoneme at all, though  surfaces as  before a voiced obstruent, as in desde. And (modern) Spanish doesn't use $⟨ss⟩$ at all. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Does Spanish also use letter X in native words at all? --40bus (talk) 16:07, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Not normally. There's extraño, which was formerly spelled and pronounced estraño but the spelling and later the pronunciation were changed under the influence of the Latin source. Otherwise $⟨x⟩$ is only found in loanwords, including learned borrowings from Latin. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:01, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Why does Spanish use letter X less frequently than Portuguese and Catalan? --40bus (talk) 14:19, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

5. Spanish Q and Bulgarian Ъ are examples of letters that don't appear in their own names but in some other letters' names. Are there any other examples of this in world's languages? 6. Are there any words in Dutch which have double vowels before a single consonant followed by vowel, e.g. taalen? 7. Can consonants be geminated after long vowels in Estonian? --40bus (talk) 15:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding 2) Only if there was some dialect or accent that used a sort of "linking H" as a form of Epenthesis; I can't think of any English words that have an audible Voiceless glottal fricative at the end of a word. "H insertion" does occur in some dialects, but this is invariably at the start of words.  Regarding the other three questions, please read the second and third sentence Tamfang wrote above.-- Jayron 32 12:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * (5) W is an example in English. Deor (talk) 16:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * And in Spanish. --Error (talk) 18:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 6: Yes, compounds where the consonant belongs to the first part. For example: faalangst, deelauto, schoolontbijt. A couple of spelling reforms ago it was more common. PiusImpavidus (talk) 17:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The old spelling can still be seen in many Dutch proper nouns, such as Veelerveen and Hoogerwerf. --Lambiam 20:52, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Or in any book or newspaper printed before 1934. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * And also compounds where the first part ends with double e and the second starts with a single consonant: meenemen, pleefiguur, zeehond. In contrast to the other vowels, e is doubled in word-final position. If single, it's a schwa. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 5. Y is i grec in Romanian and ipsilono in Esperanto. C is ze in Basque. Ç is ce trencada in Catalan. ß is eszett in German. X is equis in Spanish. --Error (talk) 18:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't see the "in some other letters' names" part. --Error (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2023 (UTC)


 * For #7, see the Wikipedia article titled gemination: "Other languages, such as English, do not have word-internal phonemic consonant geminates." What that means is that, while a geminated consonant may occur from time-to-time in speech, these geminates are allophonic with the ungeminated consonant, that is they are considered non-phonemic in that there is no minimal pair in English by which the geminated consonant means something different than the ungeminated consonant.  The only time gemination occurs in English (and only in some dialects) is at word boundaries where the one word ends with a consonant and the next word begins with the same consonant.  For example, in the phrase "That is a fast truck", when spoken in careful speech, some dialects will geminate the "t" sound in "fast truck", whereas "My car is faster" the "t" is faster is ungeminated.  -- Jayron 32 12:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 40bus's question was about Estonian, though. --Theurgist (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * So it was. I misread it as English.  Carry on.  -- Jayron 32 13:41, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

For #5, note that while the official name of that Bulgarian letter is "ер голям", it is very commonly called "ъ", like the other vowel letters, whose names are just themselves. --Theurgist (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

8. Does Turkish use letters Ç, Ğ, İ, Ö, Ş and Ü in enumeration? Would chapters in books be named bölüm A, bölüm B, bölüm C, bölüm Ç, bölum D? --40bus (talk) 14:17, 25 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Usually it goes like A–B–C–D–...; see e.g. here, or here under Madde 6. I do not know if the once forbidden letters Q, W and X would be skipped. --Lambiam 21:47, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Why they discriminate against special letters? --40bus (talk) 10:03, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Why do you keep asking "why" questions? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * They should use special letters. --40bus (talk) 16:07, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Who says so, besides you? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:38, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The letters Ç, Ğ, İ, Ö, Ş and Ü are as much letters in Turkish alphabet as are all basic Latin letters, so why not use them? --40bus (talk) 18:04, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You would have to ask the inventors of that alphabet. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:11, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 40Bus -- You sound a little like Wikinger, who was highly concerned that the letters digamma, qoppa, san(pi), and sho were unduly neglected in the Greek alphabet (even though sho was never used to write the Greek language, among other things)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

9. Are there any languages where relative clause precedes noun and which use relative pronouns? The WALS map does not display any such languages. 10. Why voiced pharyngeal and glottal plosives are not possible? 11. Can fricatives be preaspirated or breatchy voiced? --40bus (talk) 14:18, 28 April 2023 (UTC)


 * This section will be moved to the archives relatively soon. AnonMoos (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2023 (UTC)