Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 December 31

= December 31 =

New year in Chinese
“New year” in Chinese is 新年. My question is about the composition of the character for year, 年. In Japanese, it is classified under the radical radical 4, in Chinese under radical 51. Wiktionary explains it as a compound of 禾+人. The modern input methods compose the character as 人+手, 𠂉+㐄, 一+丨 or 午+丄. The Japanese classification makes sense, given that characters that aren't clearly in one class often just take the first stroke (such as 我, which is also under radical 4). But is there any rhyme or reason to the classification under 干 other than that one can see those strokes in that character, too? There is one nice concidence, though: The other part of “新年”, 新, is treated by Wieger in the lesson for 干 (L. 102H). ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 17:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Chinese character description languages are largely extensions of the radical concept, in that they are a practical invention simply not as concerned with etymology, instead trying to maximize convenience for the writer. "Radicals" as such are, first and foremost, a largely visual concept: they were first used as a means of ordering the Shuowen Jiezi dictionary in the 2nd century, and they are intended to aid with identifying characters so their entries within the dictionary may be easily found. While there are radicals that are more or less visually identical in certain forms, and as such differ only semantically (e.g. and )—this shouldn't be taken to mean that characters are organized based on how they were originally constructed.  Remsense  留  18:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course, some of the examples are not primarily concerned with etymology. If that distracts you, just look at those that are, please. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 07:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry for getting distracted. I've looked into it a bit more—no one seems to really understand why is classified under  either.
 * From Chinese University of Hong Kong's database:
 * "詳解: 現在通行的楷書「年」字，從字形看，可算是純粹的「記號字」（參裘錫圭）. 其較早期的字形的形符及聲符已不復見. 《康熙字典》把其字歸入「干」部，看來是不得已的做法. Explained in detail: the current regular script form of the character can be regarded as a pure sign (see Qiu Xigui). The phonetic and semantic components present in its earlier forms are no longer apparent. The Kangxi Dictionary classifies it into the category, which seems to have been done as a last resort."
 * I agree. Remsense  留  08:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Great research and reply, thanks! It seems we can understand “last resort” as that by someone who climbs a tree, ends on some branch and picks whatever cherry he finds there, whereas some of the more modern classifications/decompositions may be closer to the careful choice by someone who looks at a tree and then decides on a cherry. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 09:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, btw, just to add another etymological explanation: Wieger's book (which, with a publication date of 1927 for the second edition, of course is not up to date anymore) says in lesson 121H: “A year's harvest, the 千 thousand 禾 stalks. […] The modern character is an absurd contraction.” ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 09:36, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * , the Chinese word for the new year we just had is 元旦. 新年 marks the lunisolar "Chinese New Year". Also, 年 and 禾 used to be written identically. Folly Mox (talk) 18:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Upon double checking my own assertion, I should qualify that 年 was sometimes written identically to 禾, and sometimes there was another element (人 in OBI, sometimes 千). As usual, zdic has the deets (and I see their corpora of epigraphic attestations have been welcomely updated somewhat over the past decade or however long it's been). Folly Mox (talk) 18:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your interesting comments, Moxy Foll. As for your first point: Our Chinese article 新年 makes the same distinction, contrasting “西历元旦” with “农历新年”. However, none of the dictionaries I checked says so explicitly for “新年”. One even seems to treat the two as synonyms: "新年 […] ② (指元旦当天) New Year's Day". ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 20:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)