Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 December 5

= December 5 =

Vietnamese lyrics transcription
Since Wiktionary closed down its public translation page a couple of years ago, I figured I'd try something here. If its not allowed or doesn't work out for some reason, then that's fine I guess (though I'd rather not rely on the cesspool that is Reddit).

Can anyone help me make a transcription of this Vietnamese metalcore song? My ability to make out the various tonal shifts and pitch accents that are crucial to understanding the language is rudimentary at best. And yes, while I am aware that there is an English version of this song, I wish to compare both language versions at a later time to see how much they differ in meaning/interpretation or how much was translated literally. To that end, the harsh vocals don't need to be transcribed as to my understanding, those are already in English. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 08:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Marnie's accent
The Pokémon character Marnie, who hails from the Galar region, which is based on a 180 degree-rotated view of Britain, is depicted with a distinct Manchester-Welsh dialect/accent in the games, as clarified in the TVTropes entry "Oop North" (this is reinforced by the location of her hometown corresponding to the general area where Cheshire in England meets the border of Flintshire in Wales, just south of where Liverpool would be). Here are a few quotes from her dialogue as an example of how her enunciation and manner of speech are presented in-game: What would be the equivalent to this manner of speech or dialect in Japanese dialogue, in terms of delivery, harshness/mellowness, portrayal, etc. assuming there is any? I am personally inclined to think the general area of Nara-Osaka dialects might be a fitting equivalent, based on the assumption that northern English dialects often carry the stereotype of a no-nonsense working-class, and I figured that could be comparable to the once-dominant trader- and mercantile-class of the Kansai area. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 08:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "You're lookin' a bit gobsmacked by all this. You must be from some small country town, is that it? I'm quite the same myself."
 * "Out givin' it your all, even this late, huh? Hey, help with somethin' for a sec. I want t'see if I'm ready for the next leg of the Gym Challenge. Wicked! Got some fight in you, huh?"
 * "I was born 'ere so I know another way in. If you wanna get into town, how 'bout I show you the way?"
 * "Lay off! I don't need your cheerin'! Let's just focus on the battle!"
 * "Ain't this a nice breeze? This is just t'type of weather that'd make my bro stay shut up inside."
 * "Don't look so chuffed. It ain't a big deal."
 * How do you mean? Are you wondering about which accent/ dialect she would have in the Japanese edition, or are you pondering which accent/ dialect that would be the most suitable equivalent? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * A bit of both, but moreso the latter than the former. Reason being that, I understand that accents and dialects that don't use their own localised vocabulary are nearly impossible to convey in Japanese text, and that is combined with the intense social pressure to not stand out from the normal crowd and making a fool out of oneself by using your own native dialect (due to the strict homogenous social conditioning, most Japanese people are notoriously cold and prudish when it comes to expressing themselves). So I assume that the Japanese locale of the games simply doesn't bother giving Marnie an accent/dialect like the English locale does. If she does have one in the Japanese, that's great, but I haven't come across any hint that she does, or any incentive to do so. I don't know about Masters, but I do know that Marnie's actress for her appearance in the Pokémon cartoon simply speaks standard Tokyoite Japanese, which lends some credence to the thought that they just didn't bother.


 * In fairness, a reasoning why that may be so is because the average Japanese person is not really aware that English (let alone any other language) has many spoken dialects just like their own language does. Japanese collective mentality has this strange double-standard when it comes to comparing foreign/western people to themselves. They don't really recognise or differentiate that stuff like Harry Potter, Doctor Who, or Thomas & Friends are British English things, or that Bananas in Pyjamas and Disney are Australian and American things respectively; they just know that they are English (but their understood worldview of "English" is a blended pot of American, Canadian, Australian, and the UK, all speaking a universally understood tongue, and we all know that's quite far from the truth). So based on that logic, they don't expect foreigners to understand Japanese dialects either, as that is something they believe to be culturally inclusive to them. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 09:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In general, accents and dialects are very hard to translate betwen languages, since they carry a lot of innate connotations. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:42, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I dimly recall seeing a documentary that dubbed one of Hitler's speeches into English with a broad West Country accent, in an attempt to replicate how the Führer's Bavarian accent would have sounded to German audiences. Not sure how accurate the analogy was, but the result was quite amusing. Alansplodge (talk) 18:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I get that, but I've also known of cases where interpreting a character's manner of speech was relatively straightforward. For example, the Dragon Ball character Ginyu possessed a lofty high-class, stereotypical shogun-like accent in the Japanese dub, presumably to emphasise that he is an esteemed commander of both the villain Frieza's military and his personal squadron. The English dub reflects this by voicing him in the style of Patton, in a similar manner to the Team Fortress 2 Soldier, which helps convey the connotation of the character being militaristic in nature.
 * Of course, like you mentioned, it is a very difficult task to interpret something 100% from one language to another because of all the innate implications within as well as the words themselves, so some hidden meaning or association is always lost. Using Alansplodge's example with Bavarian German, I remember a few cases where a character who is supposed to be from Bavaria (or Austria) is given a "rancher" or Southern US accent to reflect the typically rural lifestyle of the region. However, to my understanding, this application ignores the fact that the Bavarian dialect has closer ties to Old High German than modern standard German does, and so most native Germans not of Bavaria tend to see that dialect as old-fashioned or dated, rather than "backwards", "unsophisticated", or "country hickish", like how the Southern US English dialect tends to be perceived in popular culture. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, not Tippi Hedren in 1964 then. Never mind. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's from a much later date than when Marnie was there... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've tried looking at her article on Bulbapedia but apparently her manner of speech is not noted there. I tried to google-translate the equivalent article in the Japanese version of Bulbapedia and I was able to find this: "She speaks in standard Japanese, but sometimes dialects are mixed in: she speaks Hakata dialect in Japanese, and Welsh dialect in English." --80.183.6.226 (talk) 01:49, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hakata dialect, huh? That puts her Japanese speech far more westward than I thought, into Kyushu territory. Some of the dialects there I believe, in particular Kagoshima's, have been described as nearly unintelligible to most other Japanese speakers. Fascinating find... 72.234.12.37 (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2023 (UTC)