Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 February 2

= February 2 =

Wikipedia: capitalization
Should the word Wikipedia when used in discussion about e.g. French or Japanese Wikipedia instead be written non-capitalized? There are a number of W/wikipedias in various languages, so this seems like a common noun. --TadejM my talk 13:50, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Did you get to the part in that article on brand names? Proper_noun. Matt Deres (talk) 14:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. --TadejM my talk 15:39, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

"Wasp" in Scots pronunciation
A recent exchange here reminded me of the unusual pronunciation of Menzies, and I saw again this little limerick:

There wis a young lassie named Menzies, That askit her aunt whit this thenzies. Said her aunt wi a gasp, "Ma dear, it's a wasp, An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"

The article goes on to explain that "gasp" and "wasp" rhyme in Scots pronunciation.

My question is, rhyme with what vowel? If it's just /gɑːsp/ and /wɑːsp/, that's boring; just sounds like RP. I'm really hoping they pronounce "wasp" as /wæsp/, which would be much more fun. --Trovatore (talk) 19:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Who says it's the pronunciation of wasp you're interested in? Maybe they pronounce gasp as /gɒsp/. DuncanHill (talk) 19:06, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That would also be boring. Anyway, that was essentially my question, modulo the smaller difference between [ɑː] and [ɒ]. --Trovatore (talk) 19:08, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry to have wasted your time. I'll try to remember not to bother with your questions again. DuncanHill (talk) 19:16, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I seem to have irritated Duncan; not sure exactly how. Anyway the question is still open.  Do Scots pronounce "gasp" and "wasp" like upper-class Londoners, or "gasp" like Americans and "wasp" to rhyme with it, or something else? --Trovatore (talk) 19:37, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see, it's pronounced with an ɑ, like British ɑ:, but short. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:09, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There are, of course, a number of distinct Scottish accents, some of which even this Sassenach (who resided in Fife for a few years) can distinguish, but in this instance "gasp" is pronounced roughly like "gas" (the state of matter) as Mick Jagger pronounces it in 'Jumpin' Jack Flash' with an added "p", and "wasp" rhymes with it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.221.194.253 (talk) 22:35, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Wakuran and Formerly Known As, who seem to have opposite opinions if I've understood correctly (I'd have to re-listen to Jagger but I think he uses an [æ]). Is there a tie-breaking vote :-) ? --Trovatore (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * My proposal was what the Wikipedia article seemed to imply, but... I wouldn't bet a kidney on it... =/ 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 03:11, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In fact, gasp and wasp  do not rhyme in RP, since the latter has the short rounded  vowel. Wiktionary tells us that Thomas Sheridan's 1790 dictionary implies the pronunciation, which would rhyme with a pronunciation of gasp unaffected by the – split. Unfortunately I don't have a dictionary that provides Scottish English pronunciations, and neither gasp nor (the relevant meaning of) wasp is included in The Concise Scots Dictionary, which is my only source for Scots. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:45, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In case you thought so, I did not mean to say that "gasp" and "wasp" rhyme in RP (which I can speak when I want to), but that they do rhyme in (many varieties of) Scots English (which I used to speak well enough to fool another Englishman, though I'm rusty). I evoked Mick Jagger because I thought his rendition of the song would be familiar to most and easily findable if not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.221.194.253 (talk) 14:44, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You didn't say that, but (the OP) did, and neither you nor anyone else explicitly denied it. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:56, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't quite say they rhymed in RP. I don't have a complete cot–caught merger; I distinguish them in careful speech, but most people I talk to on a daily basis don't distinguish them, and [ɑ:] and [ɒ] are close enough for me that I would consider that to be at least a near-rhyme (and I didn't know which one would be used in RP).  On the other hand I strongly distinguish [æ] from both of those vowels. --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In the Southern English RP I'm used to, "gasp" and "wasp" are entirely different: "gasp" has the same vowel as "arse" and "wasp" the same as "boss", but without resorting to recorded speech none of us are going to be on exactly the same wavelength. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.221.194.253 (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would be grateful if someone with guid Scots pronunciation would record the limerick and upload it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Here is an example of a Scottish pronunciation of "wasp" (to not-quite-rhyme with "rasp", courtesy of The Corries. Iapetus (talk) 22:41, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . To my ear the singer pronounces "rasps" almost as a GA speaker would, with a clear [æ] vowel, whereas "wasps" is also close to GA, with maybe a [ɑ] (note no length marker), but possibly just slightly shaded toward a cardinal Italian [a].  I don't think those are a very close rhyme, whereas the singer's "wasp" would rhyme for me with (what I think is) RP "gasp".  Interesting difference in perception from the British contributors.  Maybe related to the father–bother merger or something? --Trovatore (talk) 17:43, 9 February 2023 (UTC)